Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Biblical Greek morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
MAubrey
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by MAubrey » January 20th, 2015, 10:17 am

RandallButh wrote:And an encouragement: I wouldn't shed a tear for the term "combinative", because it didn't name what it combined. If you want an -ative name
you could coin "resultative." Linguists won't like it for two reasons, a. they already have "perfect," and b., some use 'continuing result' as a sub-category of perfects. we would need to ask, οἴδαμεν if such a term 'resultative᾽ is able ἑστάναι?
I'm not sure linguists would have any problem with resultative at all. It's a standard term for a typological class of perfects.

Also, I think chapters 3-4 of my thesis are relevant here...just to throw that out there.
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cwconrad
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by cwconrad » January 20th, 2015, 10:54 am

MAubrey wrote:
RandallButh wrote:And an encouragement: I wouldn't shed a tear for the term "combinative", because it didn't name what it combined. If you want an -ative name
you could coin "resultative." Linguists won't like it for two reasons, a. they already have "perfect," and b., some use 'continuing result' as a sub-category of perfects. we would need to ask, οἴδαμεν if such a term 'resultative᾽ is able ἑστάναι?
I'm not sure linguists would have any problem with resultative at all. It's a standard term for a typological class of perfects.

Also, I think chapters 3-4 of my thesis are relevant here...just to throw that out there.
Mike, you really mean "throw it in here", don't you?
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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MAubrey
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by MAubrey » January 20th, 2015, 10:26 pm

cwconrad wrote: Mike, you really mean "throw it in here", don't you?
If you prefer, then, sure.
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Re: "Vectorial" Verbs of locomotion

Post by cwconrad » January 21st, 2015, 10:47 am

MAubrey wrote:Also, I think chapters 3-4 of my thesis are relevant here...just to throw that out there.
cwconrad wrote:Mike, you really mean "throw it in here", don't you?
MAubrey wrote:If you prefer, then, sure.
If there's any interest in this, it probably should be a new subtopic, and maybe there's a better word than "vectorial."

I wasn't really trying to be flippant in my question to Mike; I think there's a real difference in perspective expressed by language indicating that a topic under discussion is extraneous to or within one's current purview.
"Come" and "go" in English, like kommen and gehen in German and venir and aller in French ordinarily imply movement toward and movement away respectively from the locus of the speaker. Isn't it the case, however, that Greek ἔρχεσθαι/ἐλθεῖν and ἰέναι lack that specific "vectorial" character? I haven't really explored this -- perhaps I should have done it before thinking "out loud" here -- but when I start thinking about ancient Greek verbs of locomotion, what come to mind is βαίνειν/βῆναι, which really means basically "stride" or "move one leg/foot away from the other", ἁγειν (and its compounds, like the common Koine παράγειν), which seems to mean "go forward" (transitive or intransitive), ἐλαύνειν, which seems to mean "move forcefully ahead" (transitive or intransitive). I recall the banter from Aristophanes' Frogs where Aeschylus and Euripides quarrel over whether the phrase ἥκω τε καῖ κατέρχομαι involves synonymous expressions or whether κατέρχομαι is different, in the sense "come back, return." At any rate, here's another of those grab-bags of expressions calling for differentiation or taxonomic manipulation, the sort of exercise to which Stephen Hughes is especially given over.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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MAubrey
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by MAubrey » January 21st, 2015, 7:17 pm

Don't worry. I didn't think you were flippant, Carl.

What we have in terms of our two English examples is a difference in the conceptualization of the event.

The phrase to throw that out there implies a desire to introduce information to a new domain, to bring something out into the open for discussion. A comparable idiom might be: someone finding out about a surprise party and the organizer of the part then saying, "Well, the cat's out of the bag."

The phrase "throw it in here" implies a conceptualization where the discussion itself is a container into which relevant information may then be brought. A comparable idiom to this might be a politician announcing the information of his/her candidacy by saying, "I'm throwing my hat into the ring."

Either way, the basic propositional content behind the figure remains. It's merely a matter of we choose to conceptualize as "in" and what we choose to conceptualize as "out."
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Wes Wood
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by Wes Wood » January 21st, 2015, 7:43 pm

Maubrey wrote:I'm not sure linguists would have any problem with resultative at all. It's a standard term for a typological class of perfects.

Also, I think chapters 3-4 of my thesis are relevant here...just to throw that out there.

Or, perhaps, if someone were unfamiliar with the context, it could be misunderstood to mean that the earlier assertion should be "thrown out" in the light of your thesis. ;)
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

cwconrad
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Re: "Vectorial" Verbs of locomotion

Post by cwconrad » January 22nd, 2015, 9:27 am

MAubrey wrote:Don't worry. I didn't think you were flippant, Carl.

What we have in terms of our two English examples is a difference in the conceptualization of the event.

The phrase to throw that out there implies a desire to introduce information to a new domain, to bring something out into the open for discussion. A comparable idiom might be: someone finding out about a surprise party and the organizer of the part then saying, "Well, the cat's out of the bag."

The phrase "throw it in here" implies a conceptualization where the discussion itself is a container into which relevant information may then be brought. A comparable idiom to this might be a politician announcing the information of his/her candidacy by saying, "I'm throwing my hat into the ring."

Either way, the basic propositional content behind the figure remains. It's merely a matter of we choose to conceptualize as "in" and what we choose to conceptualize as "out."
I see. "Choice implies difference." :D
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 7th, 2015, 5:11 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:If we lemmatize based on the infinitive, I assume we need the present and aorist infinitive for most verbs, and the perfect or future infinitive for a smaller number of weirder verbs? I also assume that some of the infinitive forms we need in order to demonstrate indicative forms that do occur may not actually occur as infinitives in the corpus. Should that bother me or not?
I guess my raising an additional issue about an topic discussed recently but settled to a degree will not be considered necro-posting, but rather perhaps moribund-posting (ἡμιθνής).

I'm having a issue trying to put some verbal units - rather than just single verbs - into the infinitive.

κοπιάω ἐργαζόμενος (+acc.) ταῖς χερσίν (1 Corinthians 4:12, Ephesians 4:28, cf. the nominal version of the phrase in 1Thessalonians 2:9 and 2Thessalonians 3:8 with κόπος (and μόχθος)) as either Paul's own turn of phrase or as a common expression in the Greek idiom (I wish I knew which of those it is but don't yet) doesn't lemmatise easily in the infinitive. [Participles can only be constructed in that way with finite verbs.]

My own opinion is that in cases like this, the best I can do is to put it into the most basic finite form of the verb, perhaps that would be the 3rd person singular present indicative active κοπιᾷ ἐργαζόμενος (+acc.) ταῖς χερσίν or the imperative.

Which is the simplest finite verb to work with as a second choice way of lemmatising these type of multi-word lexical units (or collocations)?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by Stephen Carlson » February 7th, 2015, 6:54 pm

The way I see it is that lemmatizing is for the headword; the examples of usage can have finite forms.
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Re: Lemmatizing Greek Verbs

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 7th, 2015, 9:30 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:The way I see it is that lemmatizing is for the headword; the examples of usage can have finite forms.
We are on the same team here in the general principle to lematise by infinitive(s). I am bringing up a mater of detail.

The word "example" contains a vagueness that could end up being confusing in this case, and ultimately an argument that could be use to discredit this way of lemmatising - or cause a source of embarrassment, despite what other good it in fact has. That is to say - Entries contain concrete textual examples and abstracted grammatical examples.

Let me put a couple of examples up from LSJ's entry for what is now lemmatised as διαλέγομαι, but what we would prefer to be lemmatised as διαλέγεσθαι (aka διαλέγω B. as Dep.)
  1. “μοι ταῦτα φίλος διελέξατο θυμός” Il.11.407 ...
  2. δ. τί τινι or πρός τινα, discuss a question with another ...
  3. “γλῶσσα εὔτροχος ἐν τῷ δ.” Plu.Per.7; ...
  4. “οὐκ ἐρίζειν ἀλλὰ δ.” Pl.R.454a ...
  5. opp.ποιεῖν, D.H.Comp.20 ...
a) an example with the entry as you are suggestion would be possible
b) an abstracted example, and the issue I'm referring to is what does the "δ." refer to? I understand it as meaning that the headword is repeated throughout the dictionary entry in the form of the "δ." abbreviation.
c), d) and e) seem to indicate that despite LSJ being now lemmatised with the finite verb, it was originally constructed with the infinitive as lemma.

To restate my point in these terms, a dictionary entry needs to be workable in terms of how the abbreviated form in the dictionary works, and in the cases where a construction is used with a participle, a finite form might need to be spelt out, rather than just an abbreviation like "δ.".
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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