Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Biblical Greek morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
MAubrey
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by MAubrey » June 1st, 2018, 2:53 pm

'Strategy' is essentially a typological term, a means for describing how one language works relative (heh.) to other languages.
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Matthew Longhorn » June 1st, 2018, 3:12 pm

Not going to lie, I winced at that pun.

So it doesn’t mean that it is a choice that is made in order to bring about one rather than another effect? Hayes is in effect stating that in Koine they would be able to produce a restrictive modification / non restrictive by use of adjectives?
If that is the case it completely clears up my confusion!
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by MAubrey » June 1st, 2018, 7:11 pm

Matthew Longhorn wrote:
June 1st, 2018, 3:12 pm
Not going to lie, I winced at that pun.
Yeah. It was initially accidental, but when I realized it was there, I doubled down.
Matthew Longhorn wrote:
June 1st, 2018, 3:12 pm
So it doesn’t mean that it is a choice that is made in order to bring about one rather than another effect? Hayes is in effect stating that in Koine they would be able to produce a restrictive modification / non restrictive by use of adjectives?
If that is the case it completely clears up my confusion!
I hope I'm right then! :D
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 2nd, 2018, 4:55 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
June 1st, 2018, 9:08 am
the whole "choice implies meaning" mantra
"mantra"?!
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Matthew Longhorn » June 2nd, 2018, 5:21 am

I guess mantra is an acceptable term depending on what you mean by “choice” It seems that I often use words which I have other options that could have been used in their place. Sometimes I even embarrassingly find myself having used a word that I know fits, but actually have to go look it up to make sure I know what it means. I don’t consciously think through what the best word would be, so in one sense I am not choosing my words.
I guess the danger is in over-analysing differences between the available options when looking at another text - options that the speaker may not even have been aware of.
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 2nd, 2018, 5:52 am

Matthew Longhorn wrote:
June 2nd, 2018, 5:21 am
I guess mantra is an acceptable term depending on what you mean by “choice”
Definition of "mantra" from COBUILD/Collins:
You can use mantra to refer to a statement or a principle that people repeat very often because they think it is true, especially when you think that it not true or is only part of the truth.
Sure, the term does convey some suspicion of its correctness, but it also suggests a frequent and indeed unthinking repetition of it, like a Buddhist chant. I know Steve Runge has used the phrase in his writings, but it's not particularly common, and I don't get the hostility to it.
Matthew Longhorn wrote:
June 2nd, 2018, 5:21 am
It seems that I often use words which I have other options that could have been used in their place. Sometimes I even embarrassingly find myself having used a word that I know fits, but actually have to go look it up to make sure I know what it means. I don’t consciously think through what the best word would be, so in one sense I am not choosing my words. I guess the danger is in over-analysing differences between the available options when looking at another text - options that the speaker may not even have been aware of.
I don't think that proponents of the phrase restrict "choice" to "conscious or deliberate choice," though I suppose that good writers are more conscious of their choices than bad writers. I also don't think it is meant to apply to performance errors.
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Matthew Longhorn » June 2nd, 2018, 6:43 am

All fair points.
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 2nd, 2018, 10:06 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
June 2nd, 2018, 4:55 am
Jonathan Robie wrote:
June 1st, 2018, 9:08 am
the whole "choice implies meaning" mantra
"mantra"?!
To me, words like 'strategy' and phrases like 'choice implies meaning' imply conscious decisions and clear distinctions. There are sometimes two ways of saying something that don't seem terribly different either to the reader or the writer, and sometimes the writer would have a hard time explaining the difference between them. I think I have heard Runge say this.

I'm not saying there's no difference, but I think the way this is explained can sometimes be misleading.
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 3rd, 2018, 2:50 am

Thanks. I appreciate your comments. (I have a Ph.D. student who's working in this area and I want to be able to obviate common objections.) I view the the term "choice" as about options within the linguistic system. This prevents us from overreading the significance of forms when there is only one idiomatic way to express it.

I can't think of any functional linguist who has ever claimed that every word choice is necessarily conscious. So this objection really feels like strawman. It's not a position anyone holds, as far as I can tell. And "mantra"? What's with the loaded term?
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Re: Hayes - Analysis of Attributive Participle and Relative Clause

Post by Matthew Longhorn » June 3rd, 2018, 4:56 am

I guess for me mantra isn’t necessarily a negative term, just one that is often seen. I am looking at it from the perspective of someone like me with limited educational background and certainly no linguistics training. Hearing “choice implies meaning” could lead to some fairly interesting exegetical decisions by people who are like me that stumble across it unless it is clarified.
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