"Aspect-only" (Split from Rijksbaron 01: Note 1)

Ken M. Penner
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Re: 01: Note 1

Post by Ken M. Penner » June 5th, 2012, 9:57 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:English also uses the past in counterfactual contexts. "I wish I knew the answer!" is actually a statement about the present, despite the use of the preterite "knew."
Proof that English is a tenseless language! ;)
Ken M. Penner
St. Francis Xavier University

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: 01: Note 1

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » June 5th, 2012, 10:22 am

As much as I appreciate lively discussion, this thread (or subforum) doesn't feel like the proper place for details of aspect wars. What is still needed after my last comment is a good, concise, modern - it's 2010's now, not 90's! -, neutral and objective (not Buthian!) introduction to the important arguments of non-tense view and the counter-arguments. For the current project there are a couple of possibilities. 1) Someone writes a concise note, maybe about half a page, to inform Koine students about the situation. 2) Someone writes a 20-page or so article describing the situation and arguments. It can be used as a reference. 3) Those people here who have criticized the non-tense view write a collection of articles. It would be longer than 2).

Ken M. Penner
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Re: 01: Note 1

Post by Ken M. Penner » June 5th, 2012, 10:25 am

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:As much as I appreciate lively discussion, this thread (or subforum) doesn't feel like the proper place for details of aspect wars.
Eeli's right. I don't mind deleting my comments on tenselessness from this thread.
Ken M. Penner
St. Francis Xavier University

Stephen Carlson
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Re: 01: Note 1

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 5th, 2012, 10:55 am

I'll just move the aspect stuff to a thread of its own.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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David Lim
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Re: 01: Note 1

Post by David Lim » June 5th, 2012, 12:19 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:English also uses the past in counterfactual contexts. "I wish I knew the answer!" is actually a statement about the present, despite the use of the preterite "knew."
Hmm I am not too sure about that. I think "knew" in this case is the last vestige of the subjunctive in English, akin to "I wish I were a lion!" (and not "was"), though I think few use the correct original form anymore. Or does the English subjunctive come from the preterite?
δαυιδ λιμ

MAubrey
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Re: "Aspect-only" (Split from Rijksbaron 01: Note 1)

Post by MAubrey » June 5th, 2012, 1:26 pm

David Lim wrote:Hmm I am not too sure about that. I think "knew" in this case is the last vestige of the subjunctive in English, akin to "I wish I were a lion!" (and not "was"), though I think few use the correct original form anymore. Or does the English subjunctive come from the preterite?
Nope. This is a preterite.

More importantly, though, let's not get into a debate about English grammar on a forum for Greek grammar.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: "Aspect-only" (Split from Rijksbaron 01: Note 1)

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 5th, 2012, 3:03 pm

MAubrey wrote:Nope. This is a preterite.
Yes. That's exactly how the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language analyzes it (pp.84-88).
MAubrey wrote:More importantly, though, let's not get into a debate about English grammar on a forum for Greek grammar.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

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