Various Types of Pronouns

Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby MAubrey » October 16th, 2012, 12:01 am

Jason Hare wrote:Would you suggest thinking of it as a pronoun in such a way that it might be considered "this [one] the man," where each is essentially a substantive in some sort of appositional relationship? I have a hard time thinking of a pronoun (and, yes, as far as I've always learned a pronoun is such a thing that replaces a noun, not modifies it) as being necessarily paired to a noun phrase in direct modification.

This is one of the problems with modern education. That's a grade school definition of a pronoun. As such, it's effective for its purposes as a pedagogical tool, but isn't useful beyond that, just like in physics, a Newtonian model is incredibly useful to teaching high school, but disappears rather quickly once you get into contemporary theoretical work.

So traditionally a pronoun is a grammatical element that replaces a noun (or in David's terms above, a noun phrase). Thus we have instances where that gets two separate categories
Example (1) wrote:a. This is my book.
b. This book is mine.

The traditional approach would say that (1a) is a demonstrative pronoun and that (1b) is a demonstrative adjective. Or something like that. The problem is that in both cases, this is functioning in an identical manner, both are referentially deictic, point at a real world entity. So what we have, then, in the grade school categorization is a situation where the category is defined by a preconceived definition rather than actual function.

Conversely, we have a definition of pronouns provided by professional grammarians from the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language:
Huddleston & Pullum wrote:Pronouns constitute a closed category of words whose most central members are characteristically used deictically or anaphorically.

And that's a definition that would say that all instances of this are pronominal because in both cases, the word is deictic. I'm inclined to think that Huddleston and Pullum's definition works rather well for Greek, too.

David Lim wrote:I consider a demonstrative that appears in predicate position to be a determiner, which I indeed distinguish from adjectives based on their different syntax. Under this definition it is clear that a word may appear in more than one class, but the classes they fall in are already fixed by the language and not easily subject to change. I am aware that "determiner" may not mean the same thing to you, but for lack of a better word, I use "determiner" to refer to any word that functions that way syntactically.

Then I can assume that you don't think the article is a determiner? It's syntax and its function is different than that of the demonstrative. And that's been your criteria thus far...unless you have some other criteria that you haven't stated...
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby David Lim » October 16th, 2012, 9:12 am

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:I consider a demonstrative that appears in predicate position to be a determiner, which I indeed distinguish from adjectives based on their different syntax. Under this definition it is clear that a word may appear in more than one class, but the classes they fall in are already fixed by the language and not easily subject to change. I am aware that "determiner" may not mean the same thing to you, but for lack of a better word, I use "determiner" to refer to any word that functions that way syntactically.

Then I can assume that you don't think the article is a determiner? It's syntax and its function is different than that of the demonstrative. And that's been your criteria thus far...unless you have some other criteria that you haven't stated...


Yup. It is not in my classification a determiner. And as you have pointed out, in such a classification words like "ουτος" fall into two categories, pronouns and determiners. I classify along syntactic lines, and "ουτος" has clear grammatical syntactic constraints when it is used as a determiner (what is traditionally referred to as being in predicate position).
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby MAubrey » October 16th, 2012, 5:29 pm

David Lim wrote:Yup. It is not in my classification a determiner. And as you have pointed out, in such a classification words like "ουτος" fall into two categories, pronouns and determiners. I classify along syntactic lines, and "ουτος" has clear grammatical syntactic constraints when it is used as a determiner (what is traditionally referred to as being in predicate position).

Then you may want to revise your original statement about αὐτὸς to say that it may be adjectival, pronominal, adverbial, or determinative, since it can the very same distribution as οὗτος. Of course, these labels are your creation, so I'll leave that up to you...

I have to say, David, if you ever write a grammar, you'll likely confuse a lot of people with your approach to categorization and description.

As for me, well, I'll just stick with saying that αὐτὸς is always a pronoun, οὗτος is always a pronoun, and so forth...
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby Jason Hare » October 16th, 2012, 7:23 pm

MAubrey wrote:As for me, well, I'll just stick with saying that αὐτὸς is always a pronoun, οὗτος is always a pronoun, and so forth...


But αὐτός does follow the article!

ὁ αὐτὸς Ἰησοῦς = the same Jesus
ἡ αὐτὴ γυνή = the same woman
τὸ αὐτὸ πνεῦμα = the same spirit

You don't take this as an adjective?? Even according to the definition that you provided, this is an adjective – and Smyth (§328) says that it can function as a demonstrative pronoun and an adjective. I think you've misstated your position here.

Additionally, I wonder if you would consider ἔσχατος to be something other than an adjective even though it (and several other exceptions) can modify nouns in the predicate position. Cf. Smyth §1172 and its environs. It seems to me that αὐτός functions just like ἔσχατος in those situations and should be considered (for all intents and purposes) an adjective.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby MAubrey » October 16th, 2012, 8:58 pm

Jason Hare wrote:But αὐτός does follow the article!

ὁ αὐτὸς Ἰησοῦς = the same Jesus
ἡ αὐτὴ γυνή = the same woman
τὸ αὐτὸ πνεῦμα = the same spirit

You don't take this as an adjective?? Even according to the definition that you provided, this is an adjective

I'd say that even in those cases αὐτὸς is still referring expression, even if it isn't deictic here, and refers beyond the NP that it appears in. That's not a quality of adjectives.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby Jason Hare » October 16th, 2012, 9:20 pm

MAubrey wrote:
Jason Hare wrote:But αὐτός does follow the article!

ὁ αὐτὸς Ἰησοῦς = the same Jesus
ἡ αὐτὴ γυνή = the same woman
τὸ αὐτὸ πνεῦμα = the same spirit

You don't take this as an adjective?? Even according to the definition that you provided, this is an adjective

I'd say that even in those cases αὐτὸς is still referring expression, even if it isn't deictic here, and refers beyond the NP that it appears in. That's not a quality of adjectives.


Which man do you mean?
The tall man.
The ugly man.
The man in the blue suit.
The same man [that we talked about yesterday].

Each of these refers to a certain person. How can you say that adjectives do not server as expressions of reference? It seems to me that most adjectives serve to distinguish one thing from another and to establish a point of reference.

Where do you live?
In the blue house on the corner.
In that house.

I can't understand how you can take demonstratives in this situation as anything other than an adjective. It doesn't set well with my brain.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby David Lim » October 16th, 2012, 10:10 pm

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:Yup. It is not in my classification a determiner. And as you have pointed out, in such a classification words like "ουτος" fall into two categories, pronouns and determiners. I classify along syntactic lines, and "ουτος" has clear grammatical syntactic constraints when it is used as a determiner (what is traditionally referred to as being in predicate position).

Then you may want to revise your original statement about αὐτὸς to say that it may be adjectival, pronominal, adverbial, or determinative, since it can the very same distribution as οὗτος. Of course, these labels are your creation, so I'll leave that up to you...


Wait, "αυτος (intensive)" doesn't appear in the same grammatical syntax as "ουτος", such as in Heb 4:10 as I mentioned, where it is adverbial. If you think Heb 4:10 is not a very clear example, the following is better, and "ουτος" can never occur in the same syntactical structure as "αυτος" does here:
[Matt 27:57] οψιας δε γενομενης ηλθεν ανθρωπος πλουσιος απο αριμαθαιας τουνομα ιωσηφ ος και αυτος εμαθητευσεν τω ιησου

This shows clearly that "αυτος" can be used adverbially, in contrast to "ουτος", which is what prompted my initial statement about "αυτος". Anyway I appreciate your questions because I would be glad to modify my classification if it is not consistent. Anyway this is for my own learning and I am not in any way intending to write any grammar, so don't worry haha..
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby MAubrey » October 16th, 2012, 10:19 pm

Now we're talking past each other. Yes, adjectives refer. All language refers. Demonstratives, however, unlike adjectives, are a closed class, for one

More importantly, the nature of reference is very different between demonstratives and adjectives.

Some evidence: NP internal usage
Jason Hare wrote:Which man do you mean?
The tall man.
The ugly man.
The man in the blue suit.
The same man [that we talked about yesterday].

Let's change the question now and answer with indefinite NPs and see what happens:

Who did you see yesterday?
Answers wrote:A tall man.
An ugly man.
A man in a blue suit.
*A same man.

The first two answers are grammatical, but the third, with same, isn't. Adjectives differ in their referentiality from same on the basis of how they interact with definiteness. And definiteness is closely tied to the potentiality for anaphoric relationships. An NP with an adjective may or may not resolve an anaphoric relationship with another NP in a text/discourse. But words like same, by necessity of its function, must resolve an anaphoric (or cataphoric, for that matter) relationship in the text/discourse.

Another piece of evidence: Adjectival Predication
To put it another way, words like same assume a textual context beyond the individual clause in which it occurs. Adjectives do not. Consider the following examples:
Examples wrote:(1) The grass is green.
(2) *The man is same.
(3) *The grass is the green.
(4) The house is the same.

In this case, example (1) is grammatical, but example (2) isn't. Same cannot function as a predicate adjective like green. This suggests that same is in a different class. Likewise, example (3) is ungrammatical, but example (4) is grammatical, though anyone who heard example (4) being uttered would likely ask, "The same as what?" And they would be right to do so because same necessitates a referent. But anyone who heard example (3) being uttered would likely just say, "Huh?"

So while the distribution between same and adjectives have similarities, they are not identical and the differences are such that suggest that same is best treated as a pronoun. Now, I haven't closely studied αὐτὸς in significant detail, but minimally, I would emphasize that the fact that the word is directly derived from pronominal system should weigh the decision heavily in favor of pronoun.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby MAubrey » October 16th, 2012, 10:28 pm

David Lim wrote:Wait, "αυτος (intensive)" doesn't appear in the same grammatical syntax as "ουτος",

I'm not talking about αυτος (intensive), I'm talking about αὐτὸς in general.
David Lim wrote:such as in Heb 4:10 as I mentioned, where it is adverbial. If you think Heb 4:10 is not a very clear example, the following is better, and "ουτος" can never occur in the same syntactical structure as "αυτος" does here:
[Matt 27:57] οψιας δε γενομενης ηλθεν ανθρωπος πλουσιος απο αριμαθαιας τουνομα ιωσηφ ος και αυτος εμαθητευσεν τω ιησου

This shows clearly that "αυτος" can be used adverbially...

καὶ αὐτὸς is part of the subject NP headed by the relative pronoun. Treating it otherwise is an unnecessary complication.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby David Lim » October 16th, 2012, 11:50 pm

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:Wait, "αυτος (intensive)" doesn't appear in the same grammatical syntax as "ουτος",

I'm not talking about αυτος (intensive), I'm talking about αὐτὸς in general.


I know, and I was saying that I consider that one usage of it to be adverbial, so let us focus on that usage.

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:such as in Heb 4:10 as I mentioned, where it is adverbial. If you think Heb 4:10 is not a very clear example, the following is better, and "ουτος" can never occur in the same syntactical structure as "αυτος" does here:
[Matt 27:57] οψιας δε γενομενης ηλθεν ανθρωπος πλουσιος απο αριμαθαιας τουνομα ιωσηφ ος και αυτος εμαθητευσεν τω ιησου

This shows clearly that "αυτος" can be used adverbially...

καὶ αὐτὸς is part of the subject NP headed by the relative pronoun. Treating it otherwise is an unnecessary complication.


Your way of taking it may be possible, but it is to me more complicated that simply taking it to function as an adverb, just like "πρωτος", declined to match the subject of the verb, can. Both have the same syntactical position as that of an adverb, so to me it is more complicated to take words in such usage to be part of the subject noun phrase.
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