Various Types of Pronouns

Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 17th, 2012, 4:28 am

Given the technical linguistic nature that this thread has come to exhibit, I propose to move it to the linguistics sub-forum later this evening.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby Jason Hare » October 17th, 2012, 7:27 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:Given the technical linguistic nature that this thread has come to exhibit, I propose to move it to the linguistics sub-forum later this evening.


Sounds fine. Feel free.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby MAubrey » October 21st, 2012, 9:53 pm

David Lim wrote:Both have the same syntactical position as that of an adverb, so to me it is more complicated to take words in such usage to be part of the subject noun phrase.

Every time someone uses the word syntactical when they mean syntactic a puppy dies.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby David Lim » October 22nd, 2012, 4:39 am

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:Both have the same syntactical position as that of an adverb, so to me it is more complicated to take words in such usage to be part of the subject noun phrase.

Every time someone uses the word syntactical when they mean syntactic a puppy dies.


I'll assume you're joking, because "syntactical" is a valid word which means exactly the same thing as "syntactic". I don't mind jokes, however, I don't appreciate people linking what I say to when lovely creatures in the creation of God dies. Do keep such words out of this forum. :)
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby Jason Hare » October 22nd, 2012, 4:52 am

David Lim wrote:
MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:Both have the same syntactical position as that of an adverb, so to me it is more complicated to take words in such usage to be part of the subject noun phrase.

Every time someone uses the word syntactical when they mean syntactic a puppy dies.


I'll assume you're joking, because "syntactical" is a valid word which means exactly the same thing as "syntactic". I don't mind jokes, however, I don't appreciate people linking what I say to when lovely creatures in the creation of God dies. Do keep such words out of this forum. :)


I'm sure he meant to say that a fairy loses its wings. Real fairies are nasty creatures, you know. ;)
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 22nd, 2012, 5:07 am

All kidding aside, I do think that, since this topic is now in the linguistics sub-forum, we should use terms that are standard. For example, in linguistics, articles are a kind of determiner, so if there's a statement to the effect that they are not, one should chose other terms to avoid the self-contradiction.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby David Lim » October 22nd, 2012, 5:41 am

Jason Hare wrote:I'm sure he meant to say that a fairy loses its wings. Real fairies are nasty creatures, you know. ;)


Wait, you have seen a fairy?

Stephen Carlson wrote:All kidding aside, I do think that, since this topic is now in the linguistics sub-forum, we should use terms that are standard. For example, in linguistics, articles are a kind of determiner, so if there's a statement to the effect that they are not, one should chose other terms to avoid the self-contradiction.


Sure, but what is the term for a word D that "modifies" a (possibly articular) noun phrase N with the syntax DN or ND and "results in" a noun phrase? I decided to use "determiner" because it's the closest, but certainly I want to use the correct term if there is one.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby cwconrad » October 22nd, 2012, 6:19 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:All kidding aside, I do think that, since this topic is now in the linguistics sub-forum, we should use terms that are standard. For example, in linguistics, articles are a kind of determiner, so if there's a statement to the effect that they are not, one should chose other terms to avoid the self-contradiction.


I'm disturbed by the tone that this thread has taken most recently: peevishness, subversive irony, pseudo-theological subterfuge -- assorted snide ways of putting on a show of civility in a discussion that is not really civil. Not least disturbing is the threat to require adherence to "terms that are standard." Does this imply a standard glossary of linguistic terms or some prerequisite coursework in linguistics for admission to the forum? While the expectation that we should all use words and phrases that communicate precisely what we want to say is doubtless wholly reasonable, there's a hint here at an esoteric technical language to be spoken by an inner circle of initiates. If proponents and "suppoters" of such regulations could assure us that they would always "chose" the right word and avoid typos, this might conceivably work. Winston Churchill once commented on a proposal to drop a requirement that British public school students learn Latin, "First make them learn English; if they succeed at that, reward them by letting them learn Latin." (That's the gist, not the verbatim transcript of what he said.) In that vein, I suggest that we table Stephen's suggestion until such time as we all use perfect English every time we post here.
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby Paul-Nitz » October 22nd, 2012, 6:56 am

Carl,

You had written:

"I think, however, that usages of αὐτός are much more confusing when one learns by the grammar-translation method. If you learn the right usage by imitation, you may still have difficulty explaining the usage to another. "

Terms are nice when they work. But usage is what I'm really interested in. Forgive my silly question. Some time back in this thread, when I was still tracking it, I read that Smyth says αυτος is never in the nominative. Huh?

    328. αὐτός is a definite adjective and a pronoun. It has three meanings:
    a. self: standing by itself in the nominative, αὐτὸς ὁ ἀνήρ or ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτός the man himself, or (without the article) in agreement with a substantive or pronoun; as ἀνδρὸς αὐτοῦ of the man himself.
    b. him, her, it, them, etc.: standing by itself in an oblique case (never in the nominative). The oblique cases of αὐτός are generally used instead of οὗ, οἷ, ἕ, etc., as ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ his father, οἱ παῖδες αὐτῶν their children.
    c. same: when it is preceded by the article in any case: ὁ αὐτὸς ἀνήρ the same man, τοῦ αὐτοῦ ἀνδρός of the same man.

I must be misunderstanding something there.
Let me ask my question this way...
If I say αυτος λαμβανει το τεκνον, is there anything different in emphasis or meaning than saying εγω (or συ, ημεις, υμεις) λαμβανω το τεκνον ??
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Re: Various Types of Pronouns

Postby cwconrad » October 22nd, 2012, 7:19 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:Carl,

You had written:

"I think, however, that usages of αὐτός are much more confusing when one learns by the grammar-translation method. If you learn the right usage by imitation, you may still have difficulty explaining the usage to another. "

Terms are nice when they work. But usage is what I'm really interested in. Forgive my silly question. Some time back in this thread, when I was still tracking it, I read that Smyth says αυτος is never in the nominative. Huh?

    328. αὐτός is a definite adjective and a pronoun. It has three meanings:
    a. self: standing by itself in the nominative, αὐτὸς ὁ ἀνήρ or ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτός the man himself, or (without the article) in agreement with a substantive or pronoun; as ἀνδρὸς αὐτοῦ of the man himself.
    b. him, her, it, them, etc.: standing by itself in an oblique case (never in the nominative). The oblique cases of αὐτός are generally used instead of οὗ, οἷ, ἕ, etc., as ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ his father, οἱ παῖδες αὐτῶν their children.
    c. same: when it is preceded by the article in any case: ὁ αὐτὸς ἀνήρ the same man, τοῦ αὐτοῦ ἀνδρός of the same man.

I must be misunderstanding something there.
Let me ask my question this way...
If I say αυτος λαμβανει το τεκνον, is there anything different in emphasis or meaning than saying εγω (or συ, ημεις, υμεις) λαμβανω το τεκνον ??


You have hit upon the question of whether or not αὐτός is ever used as a personal pronoun for the third person singular (or plural) comparable to ἐγώ, σύ, ἡμεῖς, and ὑμεῖς. In Classical Attic, it ordinarily is not so used, but rather functions as the third-person pronoun only in the oblique cases. However, it is disputed whether it is used as a personal pronoun in Hellenistic Greek; many assert that it is indeed so used, while others question whether we ever see αὐτός in the nominative singular or plural in Hellenistic Greek where it isn't an instance of Smyth's "a." category. That is to say, some would English αὐτὸς λαμβάνει τὸ τέκνον as "He seizes the child" -- while others believe that is must mean, "He himself seizes the child" (in which instance the third-person subject pronoun is understood and αὐτός serves to intensify it).
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