Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

MAubrey
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by MAubrey »

David Lim wrote:
MAubrey wrote:How can you tell the usage in the original post is adverbial?
Because it should have been "ο δουλος ο ων μωρος εκλεψε τον οινον" if it were adjectival.
I surely hope that's not Tim's reason.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:
MAubrey wrote:How can you tell the usage in the original post is adverbial?
Because it should have been "ο δουλος ο ων μωρος εκλεψε τον οινον" if it were adjectival.
I surely hope that's not Tim's reason.
David's theory (if I understand it right) is that post-nominal modifiers are adjectival with the article and "adverbial" without. As far as I can tell, few other (if any) hold to that.
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by Ken M. Penner »

Stephen Carlson wrote:David's theory (if I understand it right) is that post-nominal modifiers are adjectival with the article and "adverbial" without. As far as I can tell, few other (if any) hold to that.
I would instead understand David to be saying that the definiteness of adjectival post-nominal modifiers should agree with what they are modifying.
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David Lim
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by David Lim »

Ken M. Penner wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:David's theory (if I understand it right) is that post-nominal modifiers are adjectival with the article and "adverbial" without. As far as I can tell, few other (if any) hold to that.
I would instead understand David to be saying that the definiteness of adjectival post-nominal modifiers should agree with what they are modifying.
Yes Ken got me right. If I didn't have any context and it was "δουλος ων μωρος" instead, it could be adjectival, but if it was "δουλος μωρος ων" I would still say it is adverbial because of the word order. Anyway in both cases I would have to look at the context to determine which it really is.
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:Because it should have been "ο δουλος ο ων μωρος εκλεψε τον οινον" if it were adjectival.
I surely hope that's not Tim's reason.
Actually, Mike, that was my reason. Stems from something I learned about predicate vs. attributive adjectives from Machen some 40 years ago.

But clearly the second set of examples you presented show differently:
Luke 22:3: Ἰούδαν τὸν καλούμενον Ἰσκαριώτην ὄντα ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν δώδεκα
John 19:38: Ἰωσὴφ ὁ ἀπὸ Ἁριμαθαίας ὢν μαθητὴς τοῦ Ἰησοῦ
Acts 24:24 Δρουσίλλῃ τῇ ἰδίᾳ γυναικὶ οὔσῃ Ἰουδαίᾳ
While I think there's a weak case to be made for Luke 22:3 and John 19:38 being adverbial, they both make better sense as adjectival — and Acts 24:24 must be adjectival; there's simply no way to make sense of it as an adverb.

Is this usage specific to the participle of ειμι, or can any anarthrous participle be used as an adjective? Do you know of any examples from other verbs?

When I began learning Greek, I knew there would always be more for me to learn, and I appreciate your educating me on this point. It is disappointing, though, after all these years, that I still have things I need to unlearn.
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