genitive between prep & case

Stirling Bartholomew
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genitive between prep & case

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

2Pet. 2:16 ἔλεγξιν δὲ ἔσχεν ἰδίας παρανομίας· ὑποζύγιον ἄφωνον ἐν ἀνθρώπου φωνῇ φθεγξάμενον ἐκώλυσεν τὴν τοῦ προφήτου παραφρονίαν.
Ran across this reading Agamemnon[1], Cooper[2] addresses the placement of a genitive construed with a substantive between a preposition and it's case. He describes this phenomenon as sporadic, but gives lots of examples from Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato and others. Could not find any discussion in the NT grammars. Another potential but somewhat dubious NT example is Rev. 7:17. Apparently some scribe had problem with a split genitive construction. In a number of minuscules ζωάς replaces ζωῆς at ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς ὑδάτων. This doesn't mean that scribe would of had a problem with ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς without ὑδάτων.
Rev. 7:17 ὅτι τὸ ἀρνίον τὸ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ θρόνου ποιμανεῖ αὐτοὺς καὶ ὁδηγήσει αὐτοὺς ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς ὑδάτων , καὶ ἐξαλείψει ὁ θεὸς πᾶν δάκρυον ἐκ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν.
[1]
A.Ag 1235-1238 Cassandra
θύουσαν Ἅιδου μητέρ’ ἄσπονδόν τ’ Ἄρη
φίλοις πνέουσαν; ὡς δ’ ἐπωλολύξατο
ἡ παντότολμος, ὥσπερ ἐν μάχης τροπῇ,
δοκεῖ δὲ χαίρειν νοστίμῳ σωτηρίᾳ.

... a raging, devil's mother, breathing relentless war against her husband? And how the all-daring woman raised a shout of triumph, as when the battle turns, the while she feigned to joy at his safe return!
— H. W. Smyth
[2] (Cooper Greek Syntax, vol. 1, p198, 47.9.19) Cooper also gives examples from Herodotus (Cooper V3 p2040, 2.47.9) but every single example involves a prep construed with a genitive case, with one or more additional qualifying genitives inserted between the prep and it's genitive.
Herodotus Hist
Book 1, section 51, line 8

δύο μεγάθεϊ μεγάλους, χρύσεον καὶ ἀργύρεον, τῶν ὁ μὲν
χρύσεος ἔκειτο ἐπὶ δεξιὰ ἐσιόντι ἐς τὸν νηόν, ὁ δὲ ἀργύρεος
ἐπ' ἀριστερά· μετεκινήθησαν δὲ καὶ οὗτοι ὑπὸ τὸν νηὸν
κατακαέντα, καὶ ὁ μὲν χρύσεος κεῖται ἐν τῷ Κλαζομενίων
θησαυρῷ, ἕλκων σταθμὸν εἴνατον ἡμιτάλαντον καὶ ἔτι
δυώδεκα μνέας, ὁ δὲ ἀργύρεος ἐπὶ τοῦ προνηΐου τῆς γωνίης,
χωρέων ἀμφορέας ἑξακοσίους· ἐπικίρναται γὰρ ὑπὸ Δελφῶν
Θεοφανίοισι· φασὶ δέ μιν Δελφοὶ Θεοδώρου τοῦ Σαμίου
ἔργον εἶναι, καὶ ἐγὼ δοκέω· οὐ γὰρ τὸ συντυχὸν φαίνεταί
μοι ἔργον εἶναι. Καὶ πίθους τε ἀργυρέους τέσσερας
ἀπέπεμψε, οἳ ἐν τῷ Κορινθίων θησαυρῷ ἑστᾶσι, καὶ
Thucydides
Book 1, chapter 1, section 3, line 3

καὶ τὸ ἄλλο Ἑλληνικὸν ὁρῶν ξυνιστάμενον πρὸς ἑκατέρους,
τὸ μὲν εὐθύς, τὸ δὲ καὶ διανοούμενον. κίνησις γὰρ αὕτη
μεγίστη δὴ τοῖς Ἕλλησιν ἐγένετο καὶ μέρει τινὶ τῶν βαρ-
βάρων, ὡς δὲ εἰπεῖν καὶ ἐπὶ πλεῖστον ἀνθρώπων. τὰ γὰρ
πρὸ αὐτῶν καὶ τὰ ἔτι παλαίτερα σαφῶς μὲν εὑρεῖν διὰ
χρόνου πλῆθος
ἀδύνατα ἦν, ἐκ δὲ τεκμηρίων ὧν ἐπὶ μακρό-
τατον σκοποῦντί μοι πιστεῦσαι ξυμβαίνει οὐ μεγάλα νομίζω
γενέσθαι οὔτε κατὰ τοὺς πολέμους οὔτε ἐς τὰ ἄλλα. φαί-
Thucydides
Book 1, chapter 12, section 3, line 1

κατεσχηκότος· ἐπεὶ καὶ μετὰ τὰ Τρωικὰ ἡ Ἑλλὰς ἔτι μετ-
ανίστατό τε καὶ κατῳκίζετο, ὥστε μὴ ἡσυχάσασαν αὐξηθῆναι.
ἥ τε γὰρ ἀναχώρησις τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἐξ Ἰλίου χρονία γενο-
μένη πολλὰ ἐνεόχμωσε, καὶ στάσεις ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ὡς
ἐπὶ πολὺ ἐγίγνοντο, ἀφ' ὧν ἐκπίπτοντες τὰς πόλεις ἔκτιζον.
Βοιωτοί τε γὰρ οἱ νῦν ἑξηκοστῷ ἔτει μετὰ Ἰλίου ἅλωσιν ἐξ
Ἄρνης ἀναστάντες ὑπὸ Θεσσαλῶν τὴν νῦν μὲν Βοιωτίαν,
πρότερον δὲ Καδμηίδα γῆν καλουμένην ᾤκισαν (ἦν δὲ αὐτῶν
καὶ ἀποδασμὸς πρότερον ἐν τῇ γῇ ταύτῃ, ἀφ' ὧν καὶ ἐς
Ἴλιον ἐστράτευσαν), Δωριῆς τε ὀγδοηκοστῷ ἔτει ξὺν Ἡρα-
κλείδαις Πελοπόννησον ἔσχον. μόλις τε ἐν πολλῷ χρόνῳ
Xenophon Hist., Hellenica
Book 2, chapter 1, section 21, line 2

πάντα ἀφῆκε Λύσανδρος. οἱ δ' Ἀθηναῖοι κατὰ πόδας
πλέοντες ὡρμίσαντο τῆς Χερρονήσου ἐν Ἐλαιοῦντι ναυσὶν
ὀγδοήκοντα καὶ ἑκατόν. ἐνταῦθα δὴ ἀριστοποιουμένοις
αὐτοῖς ἀγγέλλεται τὰ περὶ Λάμψακον, καὶ εὐθὺς ἀνήχθησαν
εἰς Σηστόν. ἐκεῖθεν δ' εὐθὺς ἐπισιτισάμενοι ἔπλευσαν
εἰς Αἰγὸς ποταμοὺς ἀντίον τῆς Λαμψάκου· διεῖχε δ' ὁ
Ἑλλήσποντος ταύτῃ σταδίους ὡς πεντεκαίδεκα. ἐνταῦθα
δὴ ἐδειπνοποιοῦντο. Λύσανδρος δὲ τῇ ἐπιούσῃ νυκτί, ἐπεὶ
ὄρθρος ἦν, ἐσήμηνεν εἰς τὰς ναῦς ἀριστοποιησαμένους
εἰσβαίνειν, πάντα δὲ παρασκευασάμενος ὡς εἰς ναυμαχίαν
καὶ τὰ παραβλήματα παραβάλλων, προεῖπεν ὡς μηδεὶς
Plato Phil., Hippias
Stephanus page 297, section b, line 6

αἰτίου ἐστίν, ἀλλὰ τοῦ γιγνομένου ὑφ' ἑαυτοῦ. { – ΙΠ.} Πάνυ
γε. { – ΣΩ.} Εἰ ἄρα τὸ καλόν ἐστιν αἴτιον ἀγαθοῦ, γίγνοιτ' ἂν
ὑπὸ τοῦ καλοῦ τὸ ἀγαθόν· καὶ διὰ ταῦτα, ὡς ἔοικε, σπου-
δάζομεν καὶ τὴν φρόνησιν καὶ τἆλλα πάντα τὰ καλά, ὅτι
τὸ ἔργον αὐτῶν καὶ τὸ ἔκγονον σπουδαστόν ἐστι, τὸ ἀγαθόν,
καὶ κινδυνεύει ἐξ ὧν εὑρίσκομεν ἐν πατρός τινος ἰδέᾳ εἶναι
τὸ καλὸν τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ. { – ΙΠ.} Πάνυ μὲν οὖν· καλῶς γὰρ
λέγεις, ὦ Σώκρατες.
{ΣΩ.} Οὐκοῦν καὶ τόδε καλῶς λέγω, ὅτι οὔτε ὁ πατὴρ ὑός
ἐστιν, οὔτε ὁ ὑὸς πατήρ; { – ΙΠ.} Καλῶς μέντοι. { – ΣΩ.} Οὐδέ
γε τὸ αἴτιον γιγνόμενόν ἐστιν, οὐδὲ τὸ γιγνόμενον αὖ αἴτιον.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
Could not find any discussion in the NT grammars.
Matt. 13:33 Ἄλλην παραβολὴν ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς· ὁμοία ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν ζύμῃ, ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἐνέκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη ὅλον.

Luke 13:21 ὁμοία ἐστὶν ζύμῃ, ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ [ἐν]έκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη ὅλον.

BDF 474.4 p. 250, ATR 502-503 both cite Matt. 13:33 with reference to εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία. After reading them multiple times I have tentatively concluded they are not discussing the topic at hand. They almost but not quite talk about it. The language in BDF and ATR is susceptible to multiple interpretations, Cooper however unambiguously treats the topic.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Stephen Carlson
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by Stephen Carlson »

What do you mean by "between prep and case"? Between a preposition and its governed object? Wouldn't we get really problems with prepositions like ἐκ and ἀπό which govern the genitive?
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Stephen Carlson wrote:What do you mean by "between prep and case"? Between a preposition and its governed object? Wouldn't we get really problems with prepositions like ἐκ and ἀπό which govern the genitive?
Stephen,

Yes, prepositions like ἐκ and ἀπό require special treatment. What I am talking about is ἐν prep --> dative or , εἰς prep --> acc. where genitive qualifying the dative/acc appears between the prep and dative/acc. The other situation where a prep ---> gen. has one or more genitives qualifying between prep ---> gen is what we find in Herodotus. The parsing of the Herodotus samples is a different sort of problem.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:What do you mean by "between prep and case"? Between a preposition and its governed object? Wouldn't we get really problems with prepositions like ἐκ and ἀπό which govern the genitive?
Stephen,

Yes, prepositions like ἐκ and ἀπό require special treatment. What I am talking about is ἐν prep --> dative or , εἰς prep --> acc. where genitive qualifying the dative/acc appears between the prep and dative/acc. The other situation where a prep ---> gen. has one or more genitives qualifying between prep ---> gen is what we find in Herodotus. The parsing of the Herodotus samples is a different sort of problem.
With ἐπὶ we have more work to do than with ἐν or εἰς.
1Tim. 6:17 Τοῖς πλουσίοις ἐν τῷ νῦν αἰῶνι παράγγελλε μὴ ὑψηλοφρονεῖν μηδὲ ἠλπικέναι ἐπὶ πλούτου ἀδηλότητι ἀλλ᾿ ἐπὶ θεῷ τῷ παρέχοντι ἡμῖν πάντα πλουσίως εἰς ἀπόλαυσιν,
According to some[1] the expression ἐπὶ πλούτου ἀδηλότητι shows the reverse order of a Hebrew Construct State (genitive follows the noun it qualifies). I don't know why we should expect any Hebrew flavor to the syntax at this particular juncture. I wonder if my preferences for parsing this, ἐπὶ --> dative separated by a genitive qualifying the dative, are mostly a reflection of the English translations ringing in my ears. I guess it is also easier to explain that parsing than ἐπὶ --> genitive + dative.

[1] BDF #165, W. Mounce Past.Epist. WBC p365, but see also ATR p.496 #2.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
MAubrey
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by MAubrey »

Are you just wondering how common this is?

Or is there some other question that you have about it.

It seems to me that the fact that this construction (1) exists and (2) isn't super common is fairly predictable from the nature of Greek NP structure. The appearance of preverbal genitive NPs modifying a noun isn't unheard of and I don't see why should be disallowed within a prepositional phrase. The convergence of the two together is predictably less common simply because the more complex a structure gets, syntactically & information structurally the less likely it is to appear in natural text: its the same reason future perfects aren't particularly common: their function is limited.

But if you're just wondering how common it is in the Koine, I just searched Philo, Josephus, the LXX, NT, OT Pseudepigrapha and AF and have roughly 75 instances with the preposition ἐν. Some of these might be false hits, however.

Ignatius to the Ephesians 3.2 ἐν Ἰησοῦ
Ignatius to the Trallians 13.2 ἐν Ἰησοῦ
Ignatius to the Trallians 13.3 ἐν Ἰησοῦ
Antiquities 1.207 ἐν ἀδελφῆς
Antiquities 14.44 ἐν ἀνάγκης
Wars of the Jews 1.4 ἐν ἀφαιρέσεως
Wars of the Jews 2.379 ἐν εἰρήνης
Antiquities 18.109 ἐν Ἡρώδου
Wars of the Jews 5.454 ἐν λιμοῦ
Antiquities 20.177 ἐν πολέμου
Wars of the Jews 4.86 ἐν πολέμου
Wars of the Jews 4.399 ἐν πολέμου
2 Peter 2:16 ἐν ἀνθρώπου
Job 11:8 ἐν ᾅδου
Isaiah 38:18 ἐν ᾅδου
Isaiah 38:18 ἐν ᾅδου
Sirach 14:16 ἐν ᾅδου
Sirach 17:27 ἐν ᾅδου
Sirach 41:4 ἐν ᾅδου
Odes 11:18 ἐν ᾅδου
3 Maccabees 6:12 ἐν ἐπιβούλων
Wisdom of Solomon 15:19 ἐν ζῴων
Proverbs 12:11a ἐν οἴνων
Ezekiel 27:17 ἐν σίτου
2 Maccabees 5:14 ἐν χειρῶν
Daniel 12:2 ἐν γῆς
Daniel 11:40 ἐν καιροῦ
Philo the Epic Poet 3 ἐν Αἰγύπτοιο
Sibylline Oracles 1.84 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 1.84 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 1.85 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 1.85 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 1.302 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 1.302 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 1.306 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 1.306 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 12.77 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 12.77 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 12.146 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 12.146 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 14.184 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Sibylline Oracles 14.184 ἐν Ἀίδαο
Fragments of Pseudo-Greek Poets: Diphilus/Philemon/Euripides ἐν Ἁίδου
Sibylline Oracles 4.56 ἐνὶ ἤματος
Sibylline Oracles 4.56 ἐνὶ ἤματος
Sibylline Oracles 12.74 ἐνὶ ἤματος
Sibylline Oracles 12.74 ἐνὶ ἤματος
Ezekiel the Tragedian 1.42 ἐν χειρῶν
Contempl. Life 57 ἐν Ἀγάθωνος
On the Life of Moses, II 227 ἐν ἀδικήματος
Every Good Man Is Free 21 ἐν ἄθλων
On Mating with the Preliminary Studies 57 ἐν Ἅιδου
On Dreams 1.151 ἐν Ἅιδου
Concerning Noah's Work as a Planter 83 ἐν αἰσθήσεως
The Special Laws, III 174 ἐν ἀνδρῶν
On the Creation 105 ἐν ἀνθρώπου
On the Life of Moses, II 127 ἐν ἀνθρώπου
On Drunkenness 26 ἐν ἀνθρώπων
On the Virtues 198 ἐν ἀρετῆς
On the Life of Moses, II 274 ἐν ἀριστέων
The Special Laws, I 109 ἐν γάμου
On the Change of Names 246 ἐν ζῴων
Every Good Man Is Free 34 ἐν ἡλικιωτῶν
That the Worse Is Wont to Attack the Better 141 ἐν ἱπποδρομίας
On the Contemplative Life or Suppliants 57 ἐν Καλλίου
On the Confusion of Tongues 99 ἐν παραβολῆς
On the Life of Moses, II 29 ἐν παροιμίας
On the Embassy to Gaius: The First Part on the Treatise on Virtues 29 ἐν υἱῶν
On Dreams 1.31 ἐν χαλκέως
The Decalogue 115 ἐν χαρίτων
On Mating with the Preliminary Studies 77 ἐν χρωμάτων
On the Change of Names 65 ἐν ψυχῆς
On the Virtues 85 ἐν ψυχῆς
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by cwconrad »

MAubrey wrote:Are you just wondering how common this is?

Or is there some other question that you have about it?
Yes, that's what I thought too, when I first saw this. It's not really that unusual and it is intelligible.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

cwconrad wrote:
MAubrey wrote:Are you just wondering how common this is?

Or is there some other question that you have about it?
Yes, that's what I thought too, when I first saw this. It's not really that unusual and it is intelligible.
Carl,

I didn't think it was rare, just wondered why none of the NT grammars discussed it. I think maybe the problem is our very old reference grammars like BDF and ATR assume that everyone knows Attic syntax so anything that would be normal in Attic syntax just isn't worth discussing. This is a very wrongheaded approach if your intending to write a comprehensive grammar of a language. Cooper thought it was worth discussing and offered a very concise and understandable presentation with loads of examples. Anyone attempting to write a comprehensive reference grammar for the 21st Century reader is going to need to cover all the bases, not just comment on how Koine is different here and there from Attic or Homer or Herodotus.

I really didn't post this as a question. Just an observation of pattern which I found interesting. I collect syntax patterns like some people collect old cars.
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:I didn't think it was rare, just wondered why none of the NT grammars discussed it. I think maybe the problem is our very old reference grammars like BDF and ATR assume that everyone knows Attic syntax so anything that would be normal in Attic syntax just isn't worth discussing. This is a very wrongheaded approach if your intending to write a comprehensive grammar of a language. Cooper thought it was worth discussing and offered a very concise and understandable presentation with loads of examples. Anyone attempting to write a comprehensive reference grammar for the 21st Century reader is going to need to cover all the bases, not just comment on how Koine is different here and there from Attic or Homer or Herodotus.

I really didn't post this as a question. Just an observation of pattern which I found interesting. I collect syntax patterns like some people collect old cars.
Is there anything more to this pattern than meets the eye? It seems like it can be described compositionally: PP = prep + NP; NP = gen + N | etc. There really isn't anything that can't be explained here by the sum of the parts, is there? Perhaps there's some matter of pragmatics involved in the fronting of the genitive, but syntactically the pattern looks pretty vanilla to me. Or am I missing something?
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Re: genitive between prep & case

Post by MAubrey »

My experience with Robertson--I invariably read "ATR" as "advanced tongue root" btw--is that he doesn't pass constructions off to Attic without discussion. If any grammar of Koine is comprehensive, it is his.

As for a 21th century reference grammar, I wouldn't expect this pattern to be in one. I would expect that there'd be a discussion of NP structure that notes with examples that non-articular genitives may modify a non-articular substantive in both pre-head and post-head positions in conjunction with what motivates such positions. And I would expect that there'd be a separate discussion about how prepositions take NPs as objects/complements. I'm not sure there would be an inherent need for a third discussion of both together.
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