neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

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David Lee
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neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lee »

I was wondering if it's possible for το + a prepositional phrase to mean an abstract noun instead of an adjectival substantive.

For example in 1 Corinthians 13:10, can "το εκ μἐρους" be translated as "partial-ness" instead of "the partial (thing)"? If so, what are possible rules that could govern when such constructions should be interpreted as abstract nouns vs. adjectival substantives?
MAubrey
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by MAubrey »

Something like: "but when completeness comes, the incomplete disappears"?

In principle, I have no problem with that. Maybe you should spend some time collecting articular prepositional phrases and see what you find.
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David Lim
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lim »

[1 Cor 13:10] οταν δε ελθη το τελειον τοτε το εκ μερους καταργηθησεται
MAubrey wrote:Something like: "but when completeness comes, the incomplete disappears"?
Which one do you mean?
(1a) but when that which is complete comes, then that which is in part will be put away.
(1b) but when the complete comes, then the incomplete will be put away.
(2) but when completeness comes, then incompleteness will be put away.
I agree with (1a)/(1b) but not with (2). (2) would be expressed using "η τελειοτης" and "το ειναι εκ μερους". Furthermore the context is about (1).
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MAubrey
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by MAubrey »

David Lim wrote:[1 Cor 13:10] οταν δε ελθη το τελειον τοτε το εκ μερους καταργηθησεται
MAubrey wrote:Something like: "but when completeness comes, the incomplete disappears"?
Which one do you mean?
(1a) but when that which is complete comes, then that which is in part will be put away.
(1b) but when the complete comes, then the incomplete will be put away.
(2) but when completeness comes, then incompleteness will be put away.
I agree with (1a)/(1b) but not with (2).

I mean what I said with all of its ambiguities.
David Lim wrote:(2) would be expressed using "η τελειοτης" and "το ειναι εκ μερους".
This is where I exit. You're making things up again.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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David Lee
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lee »

I'm so sorry I haven't seen these replies. I must not have checked "Notify me when a reply is posted".
MAubrey wrote:Something like: "but when completeness comes, the incomplete disappears"?
Yes, this is exactly what I meant.
MAubrey wrote:In principle, I have no problem with that.
So does such a "principle" (article + articular prepositional phrase = adjectival abstract noun) exist?
MAubrey wrote:Maybe you should spend some time collecting articular prepositional phrases and see what you find.
Where can I best do this? I've tried to see if Pegasus allowed grammar-based queries, but couldn't find such a feature.
David Lim wrote:[1 Cor 13:10] οταν δε ελθη το τελειον τοτε το εκ μερους καταργηθησεται
MAubrey wrote:Something like: "but when completeness comes, the incomplete disappears"?
Which one do you mean?
(1a) but when that which is complete comes, then that which is in part will be put away.
(1b) but when the complete comes, then the incomplete will be put away.
(2) but when completeness comes, then incompleteness will be put away.
I agree with (1a)/(1b) but not with (2). (2) would be expressed using "η τελειοτης" and "το ειναι εκ μερους". Furthermore the context is about (1).
I meant 2.

I understand that there might better ways to express completeness and incompleteness, but I was wondering if the reading was a possibility. It helps, though, to know that Paul could have used another (perhaps clearer) way to express this.

By the way, are (1a) and (1b) any different in meaning? They seem to be two different English translations of the same Greek meaning.
MAubrey wrote:This is where I exit. You're making things up again.
What do you mean by this?
David Lim
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lim »

David Lee wrote:
David Lim wrote:[1 Cor 13:10] οταν δε ελθη το τελειον τοτε το εκ μερους καταργηθησεται
MAubrey wrote:Something like: "but when completeness comes, the incomplete disappears"?
Which one do you mean?
(1a) but when that which is complete comes, then that which is in part will be put away.
(1b) but when the complete comes, then the incomplete will be put away.
(2) but when completeness comes, then incompleteness will be put away.
I agree with (1a)/(1b) but not with (2). (2) would be expressed using "η τελειοτης" and "το ειναι εκ μερους". Furthermore the context is about (1).
I meant 2.
In my opinion, (2) is different from what Mike wrote, and hence you can't mean both; "the incomplete" is not "incompleteness".
David Lee wrote:I understand that there might better ways to express completeness and incompleteness, but I was wondering if the reading was a possibility. It helps, though, to know that Paul could have used another (perhaps clearer) way to express this.
Mike seems to imply that the original is ambiguous, and that his English rendering is ambiguous as well. I on the other hand think that the original is not ambiguous and neither is his English rendering, and that both mean different things.
David Lee wrote:By the way, are (1a) and (1b) any different in meaning? They seem to be two different English translations of the same Greek meaning.
Yes I meant them to mean essentially the same thing, and that (1a)/(1b) represent the meaning of the original sentence.
David Lee wrote:
MAubrey wrote:This is where I exit. You're making things up again.
What do you mean by this?
He means that what I said that he quoted is mere conjecture, and he does not want to discuss further. However, "η τελειοτης" indeed means "completeness", though the phrase "το ειναι εκ μερους" is not found in any text that I have access to, so you can certainly call it a conjecture, but my point was that "το εκ μερους" does not mean "incompleteness". Anyway here are some examples of "το ειναι X" used to mean "being X" to support my conjecture:

[Phlp 2:5-8] τουτο γαρ φρονεισθω εν υμιν ο και εν χριστω ιησου ος εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων ουχ αρπαγμον ηγησατο το ειναι ισα θεω αλλ εαυτον εκενωσεν μορφην δουλου λαβων εν ομοιωματι ανθρωπων γενομενος και σχηματι ευρεθεις ως ανθρωπος εταπεινωσεν εαυτον γενομενος υπηκοος μεχρι θανατου θανατου δε σταυρου

[Chrysostom, In Matthew] Καὶ ὁ πρόδρομος δὲ λέγων, Γεννήματα ἐχιδνῶν, μὴ δόξητε λέγειν, Πατέρα ἔχομεν τὸν Ἀβραὰμ, οὐ τοῦτο δείκνυσιν, ὅτι οὐκ ἦσαν ἐκ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ κατὰ φύσιν, ἀλλ' ὅτι οὐδὲν αὐτοὺς ὠφελεῖ τὸ εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ, εἰ μὴ τὴν ἀπὸ τῶν τρόπων συγγένειαν ἔχοιεν·

[Chrysostom, In Matthew] Ὅταν δὲ εἴπῃ, Ἕως πότε ἔσομαι μεθ' ὑμῶν; δείκνυσι πάλιν ἀσπαστὸν ὄντα τὸν θάνατον αὐτῷ, καὶ ἐπιθυμίας τὸ πρᾶγμα, καὶ ποθεινὴν τὴν ἀποδημίαν· καὶ ὅτι οὐ τὸ σταυρωθῆναι, ἀλλὰ τὸ εἶναι μετ' αὐτῶν βαρύ.
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David Lee
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lee »

David Lim wrote: In my opinion, (2) is different from what Mike wrote, and hence you can't mean both; "the incomplete" is not "incompleteness".
Ah, yes. I was confused because Mike started with "completeness".
David Lim wrote:
David Lee wrote:I understand that there might better ways to express completeness and incompleteness, but I was wondering if the reading was a possibility. It helps, though, to know that Paul could have used another (perhaps clearer) way to express this.
Mike seems to imply that the original is ambiguous, and that his English rendering is ambiguous as well. I on the other hand think that the original is not ambiguous and neither is his English rendering, and that both mean different things.
So you're saying that it unambiguously means the substantive (the perfect thing, the thing of parts)? If so, do you allow for the neuter singular substantive to be ambiguous in gender and number, or do you think that it unambiguously points to a singular neuter antecedent (closest antecedent being γνῶσις)?
David Lim wrote: but my point was that "το εκ μερους" does not mean "incompleteness". Anyway here are some examples of "το ειναι X" used to mean "being X" to support my conjecture:
You listed several examples of the construct "το ειναι X" used to mean "being X". I accept that, especially when the rendering includes the gerund "being". However, the usage of "το ειναι X" does not preclude the abstract noun usage of "το X". Is there not a single example of "το X" used to mean "X-ness" where X is an adjective or prepositional clause?
David Lim
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lim »

David Lee wrote:So you're saying that it unambiguously means the substantive (the perfect thing, the thing of parts)? If so, do you allow for the neuter singular substantive to be ambiguous in gender and number, or do you think that it unambiguously points to a singular neuter antecedent (closest antecedent being γνῶσις)?
For the first question, yes; the phrase refers to something that is complete and cannot refer to the property of completeness itself. For the second question, however, there are many instances where the neuter is used to refer to things that are non-neuter, especially where concord is not needed. So it must be determined by the context. But in this case the context does indicate that it is referring to "complete knowledge/understanding" as opposed to "partial knowledge/understanding". By the way, there does not have to be an explicit antecedent. "that which is complete" cannot refer to the "knowledge" that was previously mentioned anyway, since that "knowledge" is to be put away. Instead it refers to something else, which is elaborated later by the phrases "τοτε προσωπον προς προσωπον" and "τοτε επιγνωσομαι καθως και επεγνωσθην".
David Lee wrote:You listed several examples of the construct "το ειναι X" used to mean "being X". I accept that, especially when the rendering includes the gerund "being". However, the usage of "το ειναι X" does not preclude the abstract noun usage of "το X". Is there not a single example of "το X" used to mean "X-ness" where X is an adjective or prepositional clause?
I made two separate claims. My first claim is that "το X" where X is an adjectival clause (including prepositional clauses) cannot refer to the abstract noun corresponding to X, as I mention above. But if you find a counter-example, do post it here. My second claim, the more controversial one, is that "το ειναι X" can be used to mean "being X".
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David Lee
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lee »

David Lim wrote: My first claim is that "το X" where X is an adjectival clause (including prepositional clauses) cannot refer to the abstract noun corresponding to X, as I mention above.
I'm surprised by your first claim, since you are saying the "το X" construct never refers to an abstract noun, even if X is a simple adjective and not a prepositional clause. I was assuming that adjectives could be made into abstract nouns using "το X", and simply had a question whether this (supposed) rule extends to prepositional clauses as well.

Now I'm having a hard time finding why I assumed this in the first place. I scoured the internet and found one place where a grammar seems to allow for this rule. C.A.E Luschnig's An Introduction to Ancient Greek claims that "the neuter singular of an adjective (and sometimes the neuter plural) is very commonly used as an abstract noun", and lists two examples:
  • το καλον = the beautiful, beauty
    το αδικον = injustice
I also found a reference to τὸ χρηστὸν in Romans 2:4, "ἀγνοῶν ὅτι τὸ χρηστὸν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς μετάνοιάν σε ἄγει;".
Do you not read τὸ χρηστὸν as "kindness"?
David Lim
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Re: neuter article + preposition for abstract noun?

Post by David Lim »

David Lee wrote:
David Lim wrote: My first claim is that "το X" where X is an adjectival clause (including prepositional clauses) cannot refer to the abstract noun corresponding to X, as I mention above.
I'm surprised by your first claim, since you are saying the "το X" construct never refers to an abstract noun, even if X is a simple adjective and not a prepositional clause. I was assuming that adjectives could be made into abstract nouns using "το X", and simply had a question whether this (supposed) rule extends to prepositional clauses as well.
Well if "το X" where X is an adjective can really refer to exactly the same abstract noun that corresponds to the semantic meaning of X, then I will accept also the possibility for when X is a prepositional phrase. But I don't think so.
David Lee wrote:Now I'm having a hard time finding why I assumed this in the first place. I scoured the internet and found one place where a grammar seems to allow for this rule. C.A.E Luschnig's An Introduction to Ancient Greek claims that "the neuter singular of an adjective (and sometimes the neuter plural) is very commonly used as an abstract noun", and lists two examples:
Thanks for searching for these! I couldn't find what you found, but I don't think it proves anything.

(1)
το καλον = the beautiful, beauty [The original meaning is "the good/beautiful", which may depending on the context imply something about "beauty" as well.]
LSJ's entry on "καλος" does also say that "τὸ καλόν" can mean "beauty", and cites Sappho 79 ("Ἕγω δὲ φίλημ᾽ ἀβροσύναν, καὶ μοι τὸ λάμπρον ἔροσ ἀελίω καὶ τὸ κάλον λέλογχεν."). I believe that the actual meaning is "I love splendour, and to me Love has acquired the bright [shining] and the beautiful [glow] of the sun.", though it is perfectly fine to translate it using "brightness" and "beauty". It does not refer to "beauty" itself as an intrinsic property apart from the sun, but rather what is beautiful about the sun.

The second reference given in the lexicon entry seems to be incorrect, however, so I went to search for instances of "το καλον" in Perseus, and in the first few pages of results all either unambiguously meant "that which is good/beautiful", or could be easily understood as such, like in Aristot. Met. 1.984b. I'm not going to search the rest but you are welcome to search and tell me if you find any example that cannot mean "that which is good/beautiful". Otherwise there is no need to suppose that "το καλον" can be used to represent the abstract "beauty" itself.

(2)
το αδικον = injustice ["το αδικον" can refer to "that which is unjust" but does not refer to the abstract "injustice" itself, so Luschnig's English rendering is interpretative.]
Again, I searched Perseus for instances of "το αδικον". One interesting description of "το αδικον" I found was at Aristot. Nic. Eth. 1135a, which compares "the act of injustice (το αδικημα)" with "that which is unjust (το αδικον)" and specifically states that "an unjust thing (αδικον) when done becomes an act of injustice (αδικημα)".
David Lee wrote:I also found a reference to τὸ χρηστὸν in Romans 2:4, "ἀγνοῶν ὅτι τὸ χρηστὸν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς μετάνοιάν σε ἄγει;".
Do you not read τὸ χρηστὸν as "kindness"?
No. It means "not knowing that the kind [act] of God brings you into repentance", not referring to "the kindness of God" in general but a specific act of kindness of God. Furthermore, the way to say the abstract noun "kindness" is "η χρηστοτης" as in the earlier part of Rom 2:4 itself! A similar usage of "το χρηστον" is found in Eur. Orest. 427 and Eur. Phoen. 499. As with the others, at least the first few pages of results from Perseus show that "το χρηστον" refers to "that which is nice/pleasant/kind/useful".
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