Perfects "with a present sense"

MAubrey
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Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by MAubrey »

By "present sense," in this case, I mean nothing more than "can be translated with a present." I don't particularly care for that characterization. Anyway, Carl was asking about a list of such verbs. I don't have comprehensive one (well I do, but its scattered across five or size word documents), but this is a good start:

Rom 5:2 διʼ οὗ καὶ τὴν προσαγωγὴν ἐσχήκαμεν τῇ πίστει εἰς τὴν χάριν ταύτην ('have' OR 'have come to have')
John 6:69 ἡμεῖς πεπιστεύκαμεν ὅτι σὺ εἶ ὁ ἅγιος τοῦ θεοῦ ('believe' OR 'have come to believe')
Josephus, Against Apion 2.225 μάλιστα τῶν νομοθετῶν Λυκοῦργον τεθαυμάκασι (they admire)
Philo, Names 214 λίαν τεθαύμακεν ὁ ἀσκητικὸς καὶ ἀνδρεῖος (is amazed)
Philo, Heir of Divine Things 203 τεθαύμακα ἔτι μᾶλλον, ἐπειδὰν κατακούων τῶν λογίων (I am amazed)
Josephus, Wars of the Jews 4.284 τεθύμωντο πρὸς τὴν ὕβριν (They were furious)
Joseph and Aseneth 13.10 ἐξουθένηκα τὸν ἐκλεκτόν σου Ἰωσὴφ (I despise)
Josephus, Antiquities 4.89 ἡ δύναμις αὐτοῦ ἀπηλέγχθη πεφοβημένη (was terrified)
Sibylline Oracles 1.360 Ἰσραὴλ μεμεθυσμένος οὐχὶ νοήσει (was drunk)
Josephus, Antiquities 14.462 ἐκεκμήκει (exhausted)
Josephus, Antiquities 14.311 ἀναπεπαῦσθαι τὴν Ἀσίαν ἐκ τοῦ πολέμου (to be at rest)
Mk 9:13 λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι καὶ Ἠλίας ἐλήλυθεν (has come/is here)
LXX Job 28:21 ἡ δὲ σοφία πόθεν εὑρέθη; ποῖος δὲ τόπος ἐστὶν τῆς συνέσεως; λέληθεν πάντα ἄνθρωπον (has escaped/is hidden)
LXX Jer 9:4 μεμάθηκεν ἡ γλῶσσα αὐτῶν λαλεῖν ψευδῆ (has learned/knows)
Josephs, Antiquities 1.248 πατὴρ μοι Βαθουῆλος ἦν• ἀλλ ̓ ὁ ἤδη τέθνηκε (has died/is dead)
LXX 2 Sam 15:10 Βεβασίλευκεν βασιλεὺς Αβεσσαλὼμ ἐν Χεβρών (has become king/is king)
Philo, Worse 160 ὁ θεὸς μόνος ἐν τῷ εἶναι ὑφέστηκεν (exists)

Others verbs include ἵστημι and its derivatives: ἀφίστημι, ἐξίστημι, παρίστημι, προΐστημι, ἐφίστημι, ἵστημι, ὑφίστημι, ἀφίστημι, μεθίστημι, συνίστημι, προστίθημι, καθίστημι, and then also a few others: ἀπόλλυμι, αρεστέω, εὐαρεστέω, and πείθω.

But if you really want to give a perfect a "present sense" just give it some middle morphology, e.g.:

Phlm 7 τὰ σπλάγχνα τῶν ἁγίων ἀναπέπαυται διὰ σοῦ (are refreshed)
LXX 1 Kings 13:13 ὁ ἄνθρωπος τοῦ θεοῦ τέθαπται ἐν αὐτῷ (is buried)
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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MAubrey
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by MAubrey »

Here's a nice list from an excel file that I've been working from. I haven't finished filling in the gaps, but its a start.

ἀθῳόω Present: (do' [x]) CAUSE (BE [guiltless' (y)]) --> Perfect: (BE [guiltless' (y)])
ἁλίσκομαι Present Middle: (INGR capture' [X]) --> Perfect Active: (BE caught' [X])
ἀποστῠγέω Only one perfect in Perseus & Logos. Intensive perfect--verb of emotion.
ἀρᾰρίσκω Present Active: (do' [x, null]) CAUSE (BECOME fitted together' [y]) --> Perfect Active: (be' [x, (fixed')])
ἀφανίζω to hide, destroy --> be hidden, retired, be missing, be ruined, etc.
βούλομαι state verb.
δαίω Present: (do' [x, null]) CAUSE (BE divided' [y]) --> Perfect Active: (be' [x, (divided')])
δύνω (δύω) Present: (BECOME low' [x]) --> Perfect Active: (be' [x, (set')])
ἐγείρω cause to stand up/wake up --> am standing/am awake
ἔλπομαι not in the Koine
ἐνδύω to cause to be clothed --> to be clothed
ἔοικα lexicalized experiential stative predicate
ἔολπα not in the Koine
ἐπικλύζω to cause to be flooded/overwhelmed --> to be flooded/overwhelmed
ἐρείπω cause to be destroyed (rare in the perfect)
ἔχω no clear difference in meaning between the non-perfect and the perfect
ζωπῠρέω not in the Koine
κῆδω to cause distress --> to be distressed (only in Homer)
κορέννυμι to satisfy --> to be satisfied (in Josephus)
κράζω Present and Perfect has the same essential meaning
μαίνομαι Perfect Active that shares parallel semantics to the Present Middle
μείρομαι
μέμονα
ὄζω
ὄλλῡμι
ὁράω
ὄρνῡμι
παροίχομαι
πείθω
πήγνῡμι
ποτάομαι
προσέοικα
ῥήγνῡμι
ῥῑγέω
σαίρω
σεύω
σήπω
συνδέδῐα
σύνοιδα
τᾰράσσω
τέθηπα
τέμνω
τήκω
φαίνω
φέρω
φθάνω
φθείρω
φύω
χανδάνω
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cwconrad
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by cwconrad »

Just a quickie response at this point, Mike: Thank you very much. I'll want to digest these before I attempt any further comment (assming, of course, that they're digestible!).
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Basil Mandilaras in his study of the verb in the Greek papyri lists the following "intensive" perfects that have "wholly the sense of the perfect": βεβούλευμαι, γέγονα, εἴθισμαι, εἴωθα, ἔρρωμαι, ᾕσχυμαι, κεῖμαι (πρόκειμαι), οἶδα, κέκτημαι, πέπεισμαι, πεπλήρωμαι, πέποιθα, τέθνηκα, etc.

I'm not sure I agree with all of them, but I haven't studied all of them in detail.
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MAubrey
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by MAubrey »

Stephen Carlson wrote:Basil Mandilaras in his study of the verb in the Greek papyri lists the following "intensive" perfects that have "wholly the sense of the perfect": βεβούλευμαι, γέγονα, εἴθισμαι, εἴωθα, ἔρρωμαι, ᾕσχυμαι, κεῖμαι (πρόκειμαι), οἶδα, κέκτημαι, πέπεισμαι, πεπλήρωμαι, πέποιθα, τέθνηκα, etc.

I'm not sure I agree with all of them, but I haven't studied all of them in detail.
That's why I intentionally avoided making any grammatical claims about the perfect in my OP...just "these can be translated with English present." That was an attempt at a neutral starting point. Mandilaras, I would say, is a little free with his idea of the "intensive." I prefer that of Gildersleeve & Wackernagel, myself.
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RandallButh
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by RandallButh »

Thanks for the start of a list.

I, too, haven't had time to digest them.
When you get around to filling in the gaps:

μέμνημαι μεμνῆσθαι
Others verbs include ἵστημι and its derivatives: ἀφίστημι, ἐξίστημι, παρίστημι, προΐστημι, ἐφίστημι, ἵστημι, ὑφίστημι, ἀφίστημι, μεθίστημι, συνίστημι,
of course,
ἕστηκα lines up semantically more with -ἵσταμαι than -ἵστημι


PS: I don't like the label "with a present sense" either. I think of them as restricted, idiomatic perfects.(See PPS) Yet in function and usage it is often easist to group them with presents and imperfects. So the label works, though many listed above do not qualify as "restricted, idiomatic perfects."

On the other hand, when they adopt present morphology like ἥκω and οἴχομαι would I drop the perfect label.

PPS: we don't want 'translated by presents' as the definition. This is similar to the "deponent" issue. We want to deal with restricted patterns. They are perfects, but with restricted patterns, just like lots of middle verbs have restricted patters.
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by MAubrey »

RandallButh wrote:PS: I don't like the label "with a present sense" either. I think of them as restricted, idiomatic perfects.
Yes, that goes without saying. That was a result of Carl's original question the motivated the thread, where I didn't know exactly how he was talking about perfects "with a present sense." Hence the quotes.
RandallButh wrote:PPS: we don't want 'translated by presents' as the definition. This is similar to the "deponent" issue. We want to deal with restricted patterns. They are perfects, but with restricted patterns, just like lots of middle verbs have restricted patters.
Who said anything about definitions?

In all seriousness, though, I was just trying to capture something that would be guaranteed to capture all the perfects that could fit within a narrower more precise definition.
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by RandallButh »

... κεῖμαι ...
Wow, I didn't even know that that was a perfect. ;)
But it's used restrictively anyway. present and imperfect ἐκείμην, with an oh so rare future κεισομαι
And we use it like that because that's the way the Greeks use it.

It's one of those verbs that we play with in the Greek Fluency Workshops because it's so central to Greek cognitive space and basic fluency, it matters not how common in the GNT (though 24 xx isn't too shabby).
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by RandallButh »

Why do I look for "perfects with restricted patterns, restricted usage"?
1. Because they fall "within the universal grammar rule" if it can be shown that "that's the way they do it."
2. Ultimately, I don't expect to find single explanations for joining restricted patterns to broader patterns and usage.

PS: sometimes my comments like "we do it like that because that's the way the Greeks do it" sound unprincipled.

Actually, they're principled in Narnia's deep magic. Just kidding.

They are principled broadly within a cognitive linguistics framework and even a little bit within "chaos theory" linguistics.
(Yes, there is such discussion. The patterns appear on a larger scale but are not representative of the individual item.)

What that means is that every language is learned/internalized through usage where forms (broadly used here for any morphological or phonological signal) are mapped to a communicative situation (broadly used here for any referential semantic and pragmatic presentation). [Yes, I know, adult grammar-translation languages aren't learned that way, but that raises psycholinguistic questions about what kind of internalization is taking place.] One of the reasons that languages keep changing is that there are weak spots in the mappings between form and communication. Language users can pick out little pieces of the network and extend them. Inevitably, this leads to incongruities, especially with the pieces that have not yet or are no longer regularized across the board.

Over the last decade, I've learned that one of the ways to discover these weak spots in a language network is to start using a language and cross-compare desired output with recorded output. For example, imagine my chagrin a few years back to find out that **ἐκάθευσα doesn't exist. The GNT/LXX/Josephus that formed my primary nexus of interest restricts καθεῦδειν to continuative stems. It turns out that καθευδῆσαι does exist (note the different stem!), so this verb is a suppletive among the hundreds of Greek suppletive verbs. But it reminds me that the first encounter of a Greek kid with this word would be with the continuative stem that is how one would/should primarily use the word. Not saying that ἐκαθεύδησα is wrong, just that there is/was not a lot of practical use for it. Now there are a lot of verbs that have forms like καθεύδειν καθευδῆσαι (that is, having an extra -ε in the aorist), some common ones μαχήσασθαι/μαχεσθαι (ἐ)θελῆσαι/θέλειν, βουληθῆναι/βούλεσθαι, δεηθῆναι/δεῖσθαι, maybe even μεῖναι/μένειν/μεμενηκέναι. First one learns to use them, then one can ask "why?" And why ἐκαθεύδομεν often, but not ἐκαθευδήσαμεν? I've gotten in the habit of asking
εὖ ἐκοιμήθης;

καλὴν ἡμέραν ἔχετε!
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Re: Perfects "with a present sense"

Post by Stephen Carlson »

RandallButh wrote:
... κεῖμαι ...
Wow, I didn't even know that that was a perfect. ;)
Yeah, I doubled-checked it and that's what Mandilaras has. It wasn't the most confidence-inspiring moment.
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