Attributives

Attributives

Postby Scott Lawson » November 20th, 2013, 3:10 am

Can someone confirm for me that an attributive with its noun either acts upon or is acted upon by other constituents in the sentence so that the attributive and its noun are always phrasal and that the attributive and its noun function as a grammatical unit; a noun phrase.


Ο σοφος ανηρ περιπατει εν τη οδω.
Ο ανηρ ο σοφος περιπατει εν τη οδω.
Ανηρ ο σοφος περιπατει εν τη οδω.

The so called 2nd attributive position is distinguished from a predicate because it is phrasal.
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Re: Attributives

Postby cwconrad » November 20th, 2013, 8:16 am

Scott Lawson wrote:Can someone confirm for me that an attributive with its noun either acts upon or is acted upon by other constituents in the sentence so that the attributive and its noun are always phrasal and that the attributive and its noun function as a grammatical unit; a noun phrase.


Ο σοφος ανηρ περιπατει εν τη οδω.
Ο ανηρ ο σοφος περιπατει εν τη οδω.
Ανηρ ο σοφος περιπατει εν τη οδω.

The so called 2nd attributive position is distinguished from a predicate because it is phrasal.

The question seems to me to be formulated in such a convoluted fashion as to be difficult to make sense of. What I have to say may not be very helpful, as it's more a "ruse of recognition" than an intelligible rule: an adjective associated with a noun without an article may be either attributive or predicative (e.g "μέγα" in. μέγα βιβλίον may be either attributive -- "a big book" or predicative "A/the book is big."). When the article precedes an adjective associated with a noun, it seems to function like a relative pronoun with a copula equating that adjective somehow with the noun, e.g. "The man (who is wise) walks on the way" = "The wise man walks on the way." In a sense, however, any attributive adjective always involves this sort of relationship: μέγα βιβλίον attributive = "a book that is big".
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
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Re: Attributives

Postby Stephen Hughes » November 20th, 2013, 10:39 am

Scott Lawson wrote:Can someone confirm for me that an attributive with its noun either acts upon or is acted upon by other constituents in the sentence so that the attributive and its noun are always phrasal and that the attributive and its noun function as a grammatical unit; a noun phrase.
I don't know if this will answer your point, but let me sprinkle a few toppings on Carl's cake.

In the three examples that you have composed, all of your attibutives are adjectives. As far as I understand the distincition, an adjective expresses something about the noun that is true not only in the context that we see it now, but in other contexts as well. That is different from using a participle as an attributive - which would only be true for the situation that is being expressed. An adjective is found in the dictionary by itself so it seems to exist by itself, but actually, when used attributively it relies on the noun, and doesn't really have any sense on its own.

Please don't take it as pedantry, but it is perhaps a little stilted to be putting περιπατεῖν and ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ together. An ὁδός is a long extending shape, not a confined shape. Perhaps you could try using ἔρχομαι for a long unconfined shape next time. But, anyway, whatever, it's your thread, so let's go with your examples...

Your examples are;
Scott Lawson wrote:Ὁ σόφος ἀνὴρ περιπατεῖ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ.
Ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ σόφος περιπατεῖ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ.
Ἀνὴρ ὁ σόφος περιπατεῖ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ.


And to those we could add these two anarthrous possibilities;

    Ἀνὴρ σόφος περιπάτει ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ "Wise husband, walk on the road."
    Σόφος ἀνὴρ περιπάτει ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ

In my not-so-great understanding of the language, the three second position attributives are taken with the nouns that they are associated (distinguished from the predicate) because they are nominative case (or the vocative for the ones I added) - the same as those self-same nouns. Case is the first resort and word order is the second. Speaking of which, the one combination that you have not listed viz. Σόφος ὁ ἀνὴρ would need to be with a participle (rather than the indicative that you have in your examples or the imperative that I have added). That would be; Σόφος ὁ ἀνὴρ [πᾶς] ὁ περιπατῶν ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ. "The husband who walks on the road is wise."
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Attributives

Postby Scott Lawson » November 20th, 2013, 1:02 pm

Smyth: The Attributive Position of the Article

1154. A word or group of words standing between the article and its noun, or immediately after the article of the noun, with or without the article, precedes, is an attributive. Thus, ὁ σοφὸς ἀνήρ, ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ σοφός, or ἀνήρ ὁ σοφός (cp. 1168)...
1155. This holds true except in the case of such post-positive words as μέν, δέ, γέ, τέ, γάρ, δή, οῖμαι, οῦν, τοίνυν: and τὶς in Hdt.: τῶν τις Περςέων...In Attic, τὶς intervenes only when an attributive follows the article: τῶν βαρβάρων τινὲς ἱππέων some of the barbarian cavalry X. A. 2. 5. 32.

1157. (1) Commonly, as in English, the article and the attributive precede the noun: ὁ σοφὸς ἀνήρ the wise man. In this arrangement the emphasis is on the attributive...
1158. (2) Less often, the article and the attributive follow the noun preceded by the article: ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ σοφός the wise man….In this arrangement the emphasis is on the noun, as something definite or previously mentioned, and the attributive is added by way of explanation....

1159. (3) Least often, the noun takes no article before it, when it would have none if the attributive were dropped: ἀνὴρ ὁ σοφός the wise man (lit. a man, I mean the wise one).... In this arrangement the attributive is added by way of explanation;...

Predicate Position of Adjectives
1168. A predicate adjective either precedes or follows the article and its noun: σοφὸς ὁ ανήρ or ὁ ανὴρ σοφός the man is wise.

Carl, I’m sorry my question seemed so convoluted. The prescriptive grammars give the formula by which to identify attributive adjectives and predicate adjectives but for the most part don’t go on with the rest of the sentence. Such examples in isolation as ὁ ανὴρ ὁ σοφὸς seem like they could also be a predicate adjective with the linking verb in ellipsis. Predicate adjectives such as σοφὸς ὁ ανήρ or ὁ ανὴρ σοφός “the man is wise” are complete statements unlike the attributive adjective examples. That’s what I’ve come to see as the defining difference. It may seem obvious but predicate adjectives with their nouns are always going to be part of a complete statement since they are asserting something about the subject whereas attributive adjectives are only modifying a noun and will always be phrasal.

What is behind Smyth’s rule at 1155? How does it work?


Ps 101:28 (Rahlfs) or Heb. 1:12 “σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εῖ”

ὁ αὐτὸς in the example above is a predicate pronominal. I don’t see any other way of looking at it. Some in my circle of friends see it as an attributive pronominal. Am I overlooking something?
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Re: Attributives

Postby cwconrad » November 20th, 2013, 2:01 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:Smyth: The Attributive Position of the Article

1154. A word or group of words standing between the article and its noun, or immediately after the article of the noun, with or without the article, precedes, is an attributive. Thus, ὁ σοφὸς ἀνήρ, ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ σοφός, or ἀνήρ ὁ σοφός (cp. 1168)...

1155. This holds true except in the case of such post-positive words as μέν, δέ, γέ, τέ, γάρ, δή, οῖμαι, οῦν, τοίνυν: and τὶς in Hdt.: τῶν τις Περςέων...In Attic, τὶς intervenes only when an attributive follows the article: τῶν βαρβάρων τινὲς ἱππέων some of the barbarian cavalry X. A. 2. 5. 32.

1157. (1) Commonly, as in English, the article and the attributive precede the noun: ὁ σοφὸς ἀνήρ the wise man. In this arrangement the emphasis is on the attributive...
1158. (2) Less often, the article and the attributive follow the noun preceded by the article: ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ σοφός the wise man….In this arrangement the emphasis is on the noun, as something definite or previously mentioned, and the attributive is added by way of explanation....

1159. (3) Least often, the noun takes no article before it, when it would have none if the attributive were dropped: ἀνὴρ ὁ σοφός the wise man (lit. a man, I mean the wise one).... In this arrangement the attributive is added by way of explanation;...

Predicate Position of Adjectives
1168. A predicate adjective either precedes or follows the article and its noun: σοφὸς ὁ ανήρ or ὁ ανὴρ σοφός the man is wise.

Carl, I’m sorry my question seemed so convoluted. The prescriptive grammars give the formula by which to identify attributive adjectives and predicate adjectives but for the most part don’t go on with the rest of the sentence. Such examples in isolation as ὁ ανὴρ ὁ σοφὸς seem like they could also be a predicate adjective with the linking verb in ellipsis. Predicate adjectives such as σοφὸς ὁ ανήρ or ὁ ανὴρ σοφός “the man is wise” are complete statements unlike the attributive adjective examples. That’s what I’ve come to see as the defining difference. It may seem obvious but predicate adjectives with their nouns are always going to be part of a complete statement since they are asserting something about the subject whereas attributive adjectives are only modifying a noun and will always be phrasal.

What is behind Smyth’s rule at 1155? How does it work?

Yes, I think it works. I can offer no explanation other than that those postpostitive enclitics are pretty much fixed in their position following the intiial word of a clause, so that any attributive attached to the opening noun has to have the postpositive enclitc sandwiched inbetween head noun and attributive. I realize, of course, that this is more a description of what seems to me to be regular practice rather than an explanation for why it happens.

Scott Lawson wrote:Ps 101:28 (Rahlfs) or Heb. 1:12 “σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εῖ”

ὁ αὐτὸς in the example above is a predicate pronominal. I don’t see any other way of looking at it. Some in my circle of friends see it as an attributive pronominal. Am I overlooking something?

I don't think so. You're right and they're wrong! :D
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
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Re: Attributives

Postby Scott Lawson » November 20th, 2013, 5:02 pm

Carl when you said: "I think it works." That's in reference to my observation that attributives are phrasal and predicates are part of complete statements?

Thank you for your help!
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Re: Attributives

Postby cwconrad » November 20th, 2013, 5:06 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:Carl when you said: "I think it works." That's in reference to my observation that attributives are phrasal and predicates are part of complete statements?

Thank you for your help!


Sorry, Scott. I misread your question "How does it work?" as "Does it work?" -- and then went on to explain what I saw as happening in these instances wtih postpositive enclitics. I wasn't referring to your observation at all -- that's why I put my response where I put it.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
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Re: Attributives

Postby Scott Lawson » November 21st, 2013, 2:14 pm

cwconrad wrote:
Scott Lawson wrote:Carl when you said: "I think it works." That's in reference to my observation that attributives are phrasal and predicates are part of complete statements?

Thank you for your help!


Sorry, Scott. I misread your question "How does it work?" as "Does it work?" -- and then went on to explain what I saw as happening in these instances wtih postpositive enclitics. I wasn't referring to your observation at all -- that's why I put my response where I put it.


Carl, do you think my observation has merit?
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Re: Attributives

Postby Scott Lawson » November 21st, 2013, 2:46 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Speaking of which, the one combination that you have not listed viz. Σόφος ὁ ἀνὴρ would need to be with a participle (rather than the indicative that you have in your examples or the imperative that I have added). That would be; Σόφος ὁ ἀνὴρ [πᾶς] ὁ περιπατῶν ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ. "The husband who walks on the road is wise."


Stephen, I excluded σόφος ὁ ἀνὴρ because the adjective is in the predicate position.

It seems to me that you are creating a convertible proposition with the linking verb in ellipsis and a predicate clause (Σόφος ὁ ἀνὴρ) meaning The man is a wise one [πᾶς] [every one] ὁ περιπατῶν ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ. who is walking on the road. I'm not convinced this is the only way that σόφος ὁ ἀνὴρ can be used.

Thanks for your comments!
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Re: Attributives

Postby cwconrad » November 21st, 2013, 2:49 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:Carl, I’m sorry my question seemed so convoluted. The prescriptive grammars give the formula by which to identify attributive adjectives and predicate adjectives but for the most part don’t go on with the rest of the sentence. Such examples in isolation as ὁ ανὴρ ὁ σοφὸς seem like they could also be a predicate adjective with the linking verb in ellipsis. Predicate adjectives such as σοφὸς ὁ ανήρ or ὁ ανὴρ σοφός “the man is wise” are complete statements unlike the attributive adjective examples. That’s what I’ve come to see as the defining difference. It may seem obvious but predicate adjectives with their nouns are always going to be part of a complete statement since they are asserting something about the subject whereas attributive adjectives are only modifying a noun and will always be phrasal.
...
Carl, do you think my observation has merit?

Certainly the "defining difference" between the attributive and the predicative is that the predicαtive predicates something about -- i.e. characterizes -- the noun to which it refers. But there really isn't any way that ὁ ανὴρ ὁ σοφός can involve predication. Why? Standard Greek uses the article to designate the subject in a copulative clause; I don't know of any exceptions to that. ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ σοφός can only mean "the wise man" or "the man (who is) wise" or "the man, i.e. the wise one." In that last formulation you could analyze the construction of ὁ σοφός as equivalent to an appositive, but it still characterizes ὁ ἀνήρ, and for that reason it is still predicative to ὁ ἀνήρ.

This is one reason why we cannot say that θεὸς is the subject in Jn 1:1c, θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. Rather, θεός here must be predicative to ὁ λόγος. Beginners in Greek, on the off chance that they should not be intimately familiar with the Johannine prologue, might be tempted to suppose that θεός really is the subject of Jn 1:1c, and if they're English-speakers, the word-order will confuse them also. What continues to confound them, however, is that the predicate noun θεός is used as if it were an adjective. It might even be said that John 1:1c is τὸ σκάνδαλον σκανδάλων for beginners in Greek trying to come to terms with attributives and predicatives.But "it is necessary that stumbling blocks come ... "
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
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