Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by Stephen Hughes »

If Carl and Maubrey want to take this thread even wider to consider all the possible ways that NT Greek expresses the imperatives, then it might be useful to look at a table of the ways that Greek can express commands:
[url=http://books.google.com.au/books?id=m6vFTxhMOZ8C&pg=PA73&dq=%22Greek+Commands+Can+Be+Depicted+By%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rhOtUqCQBsy5lQWmjoCIBw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Greek%20Commands%20Can%20Be%20Depicted%20By%22&f=false]Douglas F Huffman, The Handy Guide to New Testament Greek, pg 73[/url] (I've abreviated the following table, if you want you can read it fully in the URL) wrote:Greek Commands Can Be Depicted By:
  • The imperative mood
  • A future tense verb in the indicative
  • A 1st person subjunctive
  • μὴ + aorist subjuctive
  • ἵνα + subjunctive
  • An infinitive
  • A participle
  • Certain verbs with commanding lexical values in the indicative
To this list can be added the classical suggestion given by Carl...
cwconrad wrote:There's no question that this usage exists in English; my memory is of my mother asking me, "Wouldn't you like to go to the store and pick up a loaf of bread," to which I replied, as I came regularly to reply to that kind of question, "No, but I'll do it for you." Older Greek uses the 2nd person "potential" optative in just the same fashion: Smyth §1830
The potential optative with ἄν may be used, in a sense akin to that of the imperative, to express a command, exhortation, or request: λέγοις ἂν τὴν δέησιν tell me (you may tell) your request P. Par. 126a, προάγοις ἄν move on P. Phae. 229b. This courteous formula is used even where a harsh command might be expected: χωροῖς ἂν εἴσω σὺν τάχει go within with all speed S. El. 1491.
For my own two additions to this list;
  • (1) I find that the optative mood in the third person, eg. μὴ γένοιτο is missing here, and
    (2) I think that there is something like an analogous imperative, eg. The parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30 and Luke 19:12-27), which after we've heard it, we have a pretty clear idea what we ought to be doing.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Hughes wrote:If Carl and Mike want to take this thread even wider to consider all the possible ways that NT Greek expresses the imperatives ...
That was the last thing I had in mind. We have a thread within this Forum titled "Re: Imperative forms and usage" viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1185&start=10&hili ... d21de8b964; I'd rather keep the focus here on the imperatival infinitive and hope that we can clarify where and how it is used.
Stephen Hughes wrote:For my own two additions to this list;
  • (1) I find that the optative mood in the third person, eg. μὴ γένοιτο is missing here, and
    (2) I think that there is something like an analogous imperative, eg. The parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30 and Luke 19:12-27), which after we've heard it, we have a pretty clear idea what we ought to be doing.
I rather doubt that there's anything much to be said about μὴ γένοιτο That's a simple optative of wish, albeit negative, and probably an item of idiomatic expression such as English, "God forbid!" or Bavarian German "Pfuah Gott!" = "Behüte Gott!!"
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by Stephen Hughes »

cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:If Carl and Mike want to take this thread even wider to consider all the possible ways that NT Greek expresses the imperatives
That was the last thing I had in mind.
Well, to stay on imperatival infinitives, did you have any thoughts on The infinitivus pro imperativo in Ancient Greek. The Imperatival Infinitive as an Expression of Proper Procedural Action. by Rutger J. Allan?

Because there is really a very limited number of examples in the New Testament to build anything on, we could move forward with a discussion of some of the thoughts from that or other related secondary sources?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by MAubrey »

cwconrad wrote:There's no question that this usage exists in English; my memory is of my mother asking me, "Wouldn't you like to go to the store and pick up a loaf of bread," to which I replied, as I came regularly to reply to that kind of question, "No, but I'll do it for you." Older Greek uses the 2nd person "potential" optative in just the same fashion: Smyth §1830
The potential optative with ἄν may be used, in a sense akin to that of the imperative, to express a command, exhortation, or request: λέγοις ἂν τὴν δέησιν tell me (you may tell) your request P. Par. 126a, προάγοις ἄν move on P. Phae. 229b. This courteous formula is used even where a harsh command might be expected: χωροῖς ἂν εἴσω σὺν τάχει go within with all speed S. El. 1491.
The question before us at present is: what are the circumstances accounting for this usage of the infinitive in an imperatival sense. It's clear that the potential optative takes the edge off of a demand that one do something that is distasteful or laborious or time-consuming; what are the circumstances in which an infinitive may do the work of an imperative?
Exactly. I wasn't imagining that the use of the infinitive would be the same as the question for English. I was wondering precisely whether we could locate the pragmatic motivation for issuing a command with an infinitive. I don't have an answer for that...(but see below)

But equally importantly, I'm questioning the usefulness of the label. The English construction I referred to isn't a command. It's still very much a question. There's simply a mismatch between the form and the meaning--a deponency, if you will. If these usage of the infinitive is parallel, albeit with a different pragmatic function, then calling it an "imperatival infinitive" perhaps isn't the best approach to labeling.

The only guess I might put forward in terms of potential explanation of the pragmatics here would be this. BDF links these sorts of infinitives with ἵνα. And if that parallel is relevant, then perhaps an explanation similar to that of Margaret Sims on ἵνα in her dissertation would be in order here. Just a thought.

Robertson doesn't say much as to a ay of explanation, but he does reference Deissmann's Light from the Ancient East, 75. Actually Deissmann doesn't say much either. He quotes an inscription:

Μηθένα ἀλλογενῆ εἰσπο-
ρεύεσθαι ἐντὸς τοῦ πε-
ρὶ τὸ ἱερὸν τρυφάκτου καὶ
περιβόλου. ὃς δʼ ἂν λη-
φθῆ, ἑαυτῶι αἴτιος ἔσ-
ται διὰ τὸ ἐξακολου-
θεῖν θάνατον.

He footnotes the infinitive and refers to his Bible Studies, 344. That discussion is too large to quote, so I refer you to here, starting at page 341: Deissmann's Bible Studies,341ff on Archive.org

The most relevant portion is this:
Deissmann, [i]Bible Studies[/i], 344 wrote:In reference to the absolute μηνύειν δὲ τὸν βουλόμενον of the Papyrus, the French editor remarks that the infinitive does duty for the imperative, as in similar formulæ generally. It would perhaps be more accurate, especially as the imperative infinitive is itself to be explained as a breviloquence, to make the infinitive depend upon a verb of command which the edict tacitly presupposes.
I think if any explanation is to be found, this would be a very good starting point.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by Stephen Hughes »

cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:For my own two additions to this list;
  • (1) I find that the optative mood in the third person, eg. μὴ γένοιτο is missing here, and
    ...
I rather doubt that there's anything much to be said about μὴ γένοιτο That's a simple optative of wish, albeit negative, and probably an item of idiomatic expression such as English, "God forbid!" or Bavarian German "Pfuah Gott!" = "Behüte Gott!!"
I've open a disscussion to follow this through called 3rd person optatives and infinitives to further discussion on this point, as it doesn't really belong here in this thread.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by cwconrad »

MAubrey wrote:
cwconrad wrote: The question before us at present is: what are the circumstances accounting for this usage of the infinitive in an imperatival sense. It's clear that the potential optative takes the edge off of a demand that one do something that is distasteful or laborious or time-consuming; what are the circumstances in which an infinitive may do the work of an imperative?
Exactly. I wasn't imagining that the use of the infinitive would be the same as the question for English. I was wondering precisely whether we could locate the pragmatic motivation for issuing a command with an infinitive. I don't have an answer for that...(but see below)

But equally importantly, I'm questioning the usefulness of the label. The English construction I referred to isn't a command. It's still very much a question. There's simply a mismatch between the form and the meaning--a deponency, if you will. If these usage of the infinitive is parallel, albeit with a different pragmatic function, then calling it an "imperatival infinitive" perhaps isn't the best approach to labeling.
I would hope we're not going to do battle over what we prefer to name an "imperatival infinitive" or "Infinitivus pro Imperativo" -- and, for God's sake, "stifle" (as Edith Bunker might say) that utterance of "deponency". Rutger Allan, uses"Infinitivus pro Imperativo" for the title of his article cited earlier in this thread and proceeds to use "imperatival infinitive" in his exposition. We know very well what we're talking about; we can weigh in later regarding le mot juste for its moniker.

The Deissman piece is one item to consider; another is the Rutger Allan article, another is the Huffman list referred to by Stephen Hughes; yet another is the Denizot volume (Camille Denizot, Donner des ordres en grec ancien: étude linguistique des formes de l'injonction. Cahiers de l’ERIAC, n° 3 – Fonctionnements linguistiques. Mont-Saint-Aignan: Presses des Universités de Rouen et du Havre, 2011.0). Let's not be too hasty to reach a conclusion (and there's always the possibility that we won't reach a consensus on this).

In the interim, I applaud SH's opening up another thread on optative usages. The table of contents in the Denizot book (see the BMCR review http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2012/2012-04-44.html indicates a sizable array of varieties of "directives" or "imperatival" constructions in Greek. Evidently imperatives and injunctions do indeed appear in several languages in considerable variety. I remember the two words in the tram from Piraeus into Athens years ago with the simple imperative printed on the interior wall, "ΜΗ ΠΤΥΕ" and similarly on trams in Munich, "Rauchen verboten!" -- there's an infinitive -- or in Paris "Défense de fumer" -- there's another -- or the English equivalent with the gerund, "No smoking!" At any rate, the infinitive is one of a perhaps not "infinite variety" of ways of telling people what or what not "to do."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by MAubrey »

That may be the case. We might not find consensus on this. I don't have any vested interest here, if only because I don't really view this as an issue of grammar.
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by cwconrad »

MAubrey wrote:That may be the case. We might not find consensus on this. I don't have any vested interest here, if only because I don't really view this as an issue of grammar.
You want maybe we should move it to "Word Meanings"? Or possibly to "Pragmatics and Discoure"? Ve could do dat, of course. But surely not back to the "Beginners' Forum." It's a usage of an inflected form that seems to be governed by certain factors. You are free to divest yourself -- but watch your language when you do so --I was advised at the bank in Munich that ausziehen means "undress" rather than "withdraw".
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Re: Imperatival Infinitives (e.g., Rom 12:15)

Post by Stephen Carlson »

I'm fine with where this topic is. A functional approach would ask: what are the available grammatical constructions for making a command or request? It is interesting that the infinitive is available to do. Of course, each construction may have a different politeness associated with it, so there is a massive pragmatic component to this as well, but it's different that the pragmatics that Steve Runge does, for example.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
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