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Conditional: εἰ καὶ + perf, ἀλλὰ + pres. ind.
Posted: January 14th, 2014, 6:46 am
by Jason Hare
2 Cor. 5.16 (SBLGNT) has the following conditional:
Ὥστε ἡμεῖς ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν οὐδένα οἴδαμεν κατὰ σάρκα· εἰ καὶ ἐγνώκαμεν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν, ἀλλὰ νῦν οὐκέτι γινώσκομεν.
I'm wondering about the force of this conditional. I don't see how it makes sense to have ἀλλά as the introduction to the apodosis. Nor do I get the force that the perfect plays in the apodosis.
Would it be contrary to the sense to say "even if we had known Christ physically," turning the sense into something contrary to fact (as if it had been written εἰ ἔγνωμεν)? How could we render the ἀλλά in the second phrase?
Could someone explain this a bit? Is it common to use perfects in conditionals? Would we call this a sort of "mixed conditional"?
Thanks!
Re: Conditional: εἰ καὶ + perf, ἀλλὰ + pres. ind.
Posted: January 14th, 2014, 7:53 am
by Stephen Hughes
Jason Hare wrote:Could someone explain this a bit?
Yes, a bit, but probably not very clearly.
I think that the ἀλλὰ νῦν οὐκέτι γινώσκομεν could be expanded out a little with an ἀπό used again, as in ἀπὸ νῦν οὐκέτι μέλλοντες γινώσκειν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν, or it could be paraphrased as ἀλλὰ μέχρι νῦν ἐγνώκαμεν [κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν = ἐν τῇ κενώσει αὐτοῦ] σταυρωθέντα και παθόντα, καὶ μέλλοντες γινώσκειν αὐτὸν κατὰ δόξαν καὶ δύναμιν ὡς Παντοκράτορα, Βασιλέα καὶ Κριτήν.
If you don't want to do those sort of paraphrases, you may like to consider the phrase κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν as to the question where you would put the article if you wanted to put the article.
- adjectival prepositional phrase τὸν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν
- adverbially κατὰ σάρκα τὸν Χριστόν
In view of that possible variation we are led to consider whether κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν could be
- [know] according to our senses a Xrist. (as we carnally percieve him )
- a Christ according to his flesh (so far as he can be known during the incarnation)
And in view of that, in any case, we should also consider whether κατὰ σάρκα means
- according to our flesh or
- according to his.
I'm not suggestion that any or all of them are true, but I am suggesting that you should consider them at least.
Re: Conditional: εἰ καὶ + perf, ἀλλὰ + pres. ind.
Posted: January 14th, 2014, 8:41 am
by Jason Hare
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think that the ἀλλὰ νῦν οὐκέτι γινώσκομεν could be expanded out a little with an ἀπό used again, as in ἀπὸ νῦν οὐκέτι μέλλοντες γινώσκειν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν, or it could be paraphrased as ἀλλὰ μέχρι νῦν ἐγνώκαμεν [κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν = ἐν τῇ κενώσει αὐτοῦ] σταυρωθέντα και παθόντα, καὶ μέλλοντες γινώσκειν αὐτὸν κατὰ δόξαν καὶ δύναμιν ὡς Παντοκράτορα, Βασιλέα καὶ Κριτήν.
I have no problem with the νῦν and ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν part. My real confusion is about the structure (syntax) of the conditional.
Stephen Hughes wrote:If you don't want to do those sort of paraphrases, you may like to consider the phrase κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν as to the question where you would put the article if you wanted to put the article.
- adjectival prepositional phrase τὸν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν
- adverbially κατὰ σάρκα τὸν Χριστόν
I would certainly take κατὰ σάρκα adverbially, telling
in what way we know people. I think the idea is that we should no longer know people in a carnal way but only in a spiritual way. It's not saying "the physical Christ" but rather "we no longer know Christ
in a physical way." That seems pretty clear.
Stephen Hughes wrote:In view of that possible variation we are led to consider whether κατὰ σάρκα Χριστὸν could be
- [know] according to our senses a Xrist. (as we carnally percieve him )
- a Christ according to his flesh (so far as he can be known during the incarnation)
I wouldn't take κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν as a phrase any more than I would take οὐδεὶς κατὰ σάρκα (from οὐδένα οἴδαμεν κατὰ σάρκα) as a phrase in itself. The prepositional phrase κατὰ σάρκα is adverbial, and Χριστόν is the object of the verb γινώσκω.
Stephen Hughes wrote:And in view of that, in any case, we should also consider whether κατὰ σάρκα means
- according to our flesh or
- according to his.
I'm not suggestion that any or all of them are true, but I am suggesting that you should consider them at least.
This last point is certainly worth some thought. Then again, could it be neither
his nor
ours but simply in a carnal way (without regard to whose flesh is in question)?
Thanks for your comments.
I'm looking for a discussion of the structure of this conditional (εἰ καί + perf. ind., ἀλλὰ + pres. ind.).
Re: Conditional: εἰ καὶ + perf, ἀλλὰ + pres. ind.
Posted: January 14th, 2014, 8:57 am
by cwconrad
Jason Hare wrote:2 Cor. 5.16 (SBLGNT) has the following conditional:
Ὥστε ἡμεῖς ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν οὐδένα οἴδαμεν κατὰ σάρκα· εἰ καὶ ἐγνώκαμεν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν, ἀλλὰ νῦν οὐκέτι γινώσκομεν.
I'm wondering about the force of this conditional. I don't see how it makes sense to have ἀλλά as the introduction to the apodosis. Nor do I get the force that the perfect plays in the apodosis.
Would it be contrary to the sense to say "even if we had known Christ physically," turning the sense into something contrary to fact (as if it had been written εἰ ἔγνωμεν)? How could we render the ἀλλά in the second phrase?
Could someone explain this a bit? Is it common to use perfects in conditionals? Would we call this a sort of "mixed conditional"?!
My understanding of the condition is that it is concessive: εἰ καὶ = καίπερ + ptc. - "although" or "even if"; ἀλλὰ = ὅμως - "even so, nevertheless". The sense is, "Although (in the past) we have known Christlin a spatial-temporal context, it is nevertheless true that we don't know him that way any more" or "Granted that we
did know Christ in a spatial-temporal context, even so, we don't know him that way any more."
Re: Conditional: εἰ καὶ + perf, ἀλλὰ + pres. ind.
Posted: January 14th, 2014, 11:15 am
by Jason Hare
cwconrad wrote:My understanding of the condition is that it is concessive: εἰ καὶ = καίπερ + ptc. - "although" or "even if"; ἀλλὰ = ὅμως - "even so, nevertheless". The sense is, "Although (in the past) we have known Christlin a spatial-temporal context, it is nevertheless true that we don't know him that way any more" or "Granted that we did know Christ in a spatial-temporal context, even so, we don't know him that way any more."
Excellent. Thanks.
Could a corollary of this condition be that Paul included himself as one who knew Jesus physically? This is how it was presented to me this week.
Re: Conditional: εἰ καὶ + perf, ἀλλὰ + pres. ind.
Posted: January 14th, 2014, 1:00 pm
by cwconrad
Jason Hare wrote:cwconrad wrote:My understanding of the condition is that it is concessive: εἰ καὶ = καίπερ + ptc. - "although" or "even if"; ἀλλὰ = ὅμως - "even so, nevertheless". The sense is, "Although (in the past) we have known Christlin a spatial-temporal context, it is nevertheless true that we don't know him that way any more" or "Granted that we did know Christ in a spatial-temporal context, even so, we don't know him that way any more."
Excellent. Thanks.
Could a corollary of this condition be that Paul included himself as one who knew Jesus physically? This is how it was presented to me this week.
Logically I think it
could include Paul himself, but I don't think there's any necessity to read it that way; my sense of the passage is that he's talking about believers of his own generation, some of whom did know Jesus "in the flesh." I think rather that he wants to emphasize that there's no more knowing of Jesus "in the flesh" for any believer.