NT Greek meets Semitic

RandallButh
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Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

NT Greek meets Semitic

Post by RandallButh »

Thank you, Stephen.

It is useful to see how people might be thinking and approaching NTGreek these days.
Maybe not so surprising, but still disappointing, is seeing the discussion on the interface between Greek and Semitic languages out of touch with linguistics on first century languages in the Land of Israel, no mention of knowing anything about mishnaic Hebrew. So a 'lump of salt' is necessary in the area of Semitics and the compartmentlization between the two fields remains secure.
Hefin J. Jones
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Location: Davao, Philippines

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by Hefin J. Jones »

Some degree of Irony in this quotation: "In particular, among the synoptic Gospels (Marc, Luke and Matthews), various Semitisms in the Gospel of Marc and Luke show that the mother tongue of their authors was not Greek but Aramaic"

It suggests that English is not the mother tongue of the paper's authors.
Hefin Jones

instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
RandallButh
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Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by RandallButh »

So English isn't their mother-tongue, and Semitics and Semitized Greek is not a field of their expertise, either.

If Mark and Luke had Aramaic as a mother-tongue, why are there ZERO narrative-τότε examples in the gospel of Mark, instead 30 to 70, when he obviously didn't try to fit into Greek norms? Why are there only 2 examples, well within normal Greek parameters, in Luke?
One might ask why people keep writing on Semitisms and NT Greek without controlling the languages of the time period to a high level?
Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by Wes Wood »

I have no way of interacting with much of this information but am curious about it. If Aramaic is not behind the greek of these gospels, what is? If anything...
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
RandallButh
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Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by RandallButh »

Wes, you may be influenced from a common echo effect in secondary sources:
"Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek Aramaic Greek"

So in what languages were story parables given to the common people [first century, land of Israel]?
In what language did the common people access the Bible?
In what language were oral teachings published?
In what language did messianic end-time communities compose their own writings?
From what language do traits show up in the Greek of the gospels?
In what language were decisions about daily life framed?
What language is cited for the earliest Christian gospel traditions?
What language(s) was used for recording the Maccabean history for posterity?
What did Josephus' consider the patriarchal language and when did he use it or mention it?

(Hint, neither Aramaic nor Greek is the best starting point for the above questions and discussions.
E.g. on first question, most NT reference works do not mention that there are no Aramaic story parables in any early Jewish literature. None, nada. That is, 0.0%. Even though over 400 such parables exist from tannaitic times and sources. And throughout Jewish lit, even in Aramaic contexts, story parables are always given in . . . hmm, colloquial Hebrew, not classical, Late Biblical, or Qumranian Hebrew, nor Aramaic. But you'd never guess or hear about this in typical secondary sources for NT study. Very strange. One would at least hope to hear such an incongruity with prevailing viewpoints raised, discussed, and explanations attempted and evaluated. Maybe this will change in 2014.)

Unfortunately, a meaningful discussion of the above requires acquaintance with quite a bit of material in their original language(s) and goes far off topic from b-Greek.
Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by Wes Wood »

Thank you for your reply, Dr. Buth. This is the type of response I had hoped for. I try not to form an opinion about things like this since I do not have the ability to investigate these types of claims. However, I am always interested in noting the informed positions of those who do. I only wish I could pursue graduate studies in this area.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Hefin J. Jones
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Joined: July 3rd, 2013, 1:41 am
Location: Davao, Philippines

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by Hefin J. Jones »

Dr Buth:
Can you provide us with some pointers towards work (preferably in English) that deals more adequately with bi- tri- lingualism in first century Judea/Galilee/Syria?

Others:
I remember on my previous stint on B-greek some years ago listening in to some very stimulating and robust discussions on these issues BUT (i) I didn't have an effective way of recording those discussions back then; and (ii) I'm yet to master searching the archives.


PS on the issue of knowledge of koinē in first century judea/galilee I found Greg Hoesley's (?) piece in New Docs 5 (?) fairly convincing to a 'lay person' like me.
Hefin Jones

instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
RandallButh
Posts: 1105
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by RandallButh »

OK, here is something fairly recent:
Steven E. Fassberg, “Which Semitic Language Did Jesus and Other Contemporary Jews Speak?” CBQ 74–2 (April 2012), 263–280.

There is also a Brill volume coming out in a few months:
Buth and Notley, edd., The Language Environment of First Century Judaea (Jersalem Studies in the Synoptic Gospels, v. 2), Brill, forthcoming 2014.
Hefin J. Jones
Posts: 55
Joined: July 3rd, 2013, 1:41 am
Location: Davao, Philippines

Re: NT Greek meets Linguistics

Post by Hefin J. Jones »

Thanks!

Maybe 2014 will be the year after all!
Hefin Jones

instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Qumran, Late Biblical Hebrew, Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Stephen Hughes »

There is currently a vrey little bit of discussion of which type of Hebrew was used at about the time of the New Testament on B-Hebrew, if you wanted to read those few post, they are at:
Re: Some questions about Psalm 96 (But the topic has really left Psalm 96 behind for now - different board ethos there - not the same splitting of threads). I find that following their discussion is interesting at least.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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