What Smyth grammatical terms would you *not* use?

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Jonathan Robie
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What Smyth grammatical terms would you *not* use?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

I'm working on a project with a few others that requires a set of tags for morphology and syntax. We would like to use Smyth's terms whenever there is no reason not to.

I know the term "deponent" is probably outdated. What other grammatical terms in Smyth would you avoid using, and why?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4165
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: What Smyth grammatical terms would you *not* use?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Let me ask this question concretely, with a little more data. Here is a set of Smyth terms proposed by Giuseppe Celano - this is a first cut, on which we would like feedback. If we want a standard set of terms for characterizing the nodes and edges of a syntax tree, based as much as reasonable on Smyth, is this the set we want? If not, what changes would you propose?

Code: Select all

<!-- this file has been written by Giuseppe G. A. Celano -->

<!-- This legenda explains the abbreviations used for the morphosyntactic categories used when annotating. Each <key> also contains, in @smyth attribute,
the reference to the corresponding section in Smyth's grammar. The logic of the @smyth attribute is 

1) if there is no reference in Smyth's grammar, there is no @smyth attribute
2) if there is only a section number: e.g. <key abbr="vrb_stm" smyth="2153">statement</key>
3) if there is one interval:          e.g. <key abbr="pur_vrl" smyth="2008-2010">purpose</key>
4) if there are more intervals:       e.g. <key abbr="prt_inr" smyth="2106-2115;2123-2145">in indirect discourse</key>
-->


<legenda n="Key for the annotation values in the XML file prototype-Treebank2.0">
  
  <!-- parts of speech, start -->
  <key abbr="art" smyth="1099-1189">article</key>
  <key abbr="nou" smyth="1279-1635">noun</key>
  <key abbr="prn" smyth="1190-1278">pronoun</key>
  <key abbr="sbs_adj" smyth="1021-1029">substantive adjective</key>
  <key abbr="sbs_prt" smyth="2052">substantive participle</key>
  <key abbr="inf" smyth="1966-2038">infinitive</key>
  <key abbr="vrb">finite form verb</key>
  <key abbr="prt" smyth="2039-2148">participle</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_adj" smyth="2149-2152">verbal adjective</key>
  <key abbr="sbs_vrb_adj">substantivized verbal adjective</key>
  <key abbr="adj" smyth="1018-1093">adjective</key>
  <key abbr="prn_adj" smyth="1190-1278">pronominal adjective</key>
  <key abbr="adv" smyth="1094-1098">adverb</key>
  <key abbr="adp" smyth="1363-1702">adposition</key>
  <key abbr="cnj">conjunction</key>
  <key abbr="inj">interjection</key>
  <key abbr="pct">punctuation</key>
  <!-- parts of speech, end -->
  
  <!-- person, start -->
  <key abbr="1">first person</key>
  <key abbr="2">second person</key>
  <key abbr="3">third person</key>
  <!-- person, end -->
  
  <!-- number, start -->
  <key abbr="sng">singular</key>
  <key abbr="plr">plural</key>
  <key abbr="dua">dual</key>
  <!-- number, end -->
  
  <!-- tense, start -->
  <key abbr="prs">present</key>
  <key abbr="imp">imperfect</key>
  <key abbr="prf">perfect</key>
  <key abbr="plp">pluperfect</key>
  <key abbr="ftr_prf">future perfect</key>
  <key abbr="ftr">future</key>
  <key abbr="aor">aorist</key>
  <!-- tense, end -->
  
  <!-- mood, start -->
  <key abbr="ind">indicative</key>
  <key abbr="sbn">subjunctive</key>
  <key abbr="opt">optative</key>
  <key abbr="imr">imperative</key>
  <!-- mood, end -->
  
  <!-- voice, start -->
  <key abbr="act_act">active form/active meaning</key>
  <key abbr="act_pss">active form/passive meaning</key>
  <key abbr="mdd_mdd_act">middle form/middle or active meaning</key>
  <key abbr="mdd_pss">middle form/passive meaning</key>
  <key abbr="mdd_pss_mdd">middle-passive form/middle meaning</key>
  <key abbr="mdd_pss_pss">middle-passive form/passive meaning</key>
  <key abbr="pss_mdd_act">passive form/middle or active meaning</key>
  <key abbr="pss_pss">passive form/passive meaning</key>
  <!-- voice, end -->
  
  <!-- gender, start -->
  <key abbr="msc">masculine</key>
  <key abbr="fmn">feminine</key>
  <key abbr="ntr">neuter</key>
  <!-- gender, end -->
  
  <!-- case, start -->
  <key abbr="nmn" smyth="938-943">nominative</key>
  <key abbr="gnt" smyth="1289-1449">genitive</key>
  <key abbr="dtv" smyth="1450-1550">dative</key>
  <key abbr="acc" smyth="1551-1635">accusative</key>
  <key abbr="vct" smyth="1283-1288">vocative</key>
  <!-- case, end -->
  
  <!-- degree, start -->
  <key abbr="pst">positive</key>
  <key abbr="cmp">comparative</key>
  <key abbr="spl">superlative</key>
  <!-- degree, end -->
  
  <!-- independent finite verb form, start -->
  <key abbr="vrb_inn">independent</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_dpd">dependent</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_stm" smyth="2153">statement</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_cmn" smyth="2155">command</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_wsh" smyth="2156">wish</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_qst" smyth="2157">question</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_exc" smyth="2158">exclamation</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_inr" smyth="2591-2635">in indirect discourse</key>
  <key abbr="vrb_not_inr">not in indirect discourse</key>
  <key abbr="sbs_cls" smyth="2574-2588">substantive clause</key>
  <key abbr="adj_cls" smyth="2488-2573">adjective clause</key>
  <key abbr="adv_cls" smyth="2191-2487">adverb clause</key>
  <key abbr="stm_sbs" smyth="2575">statement</key>
  <key abbr="wll_dsr_sbs" smyth="2575">wish</key>
  <key abbr="qst_sbs" smyth="2575">question</key>
  <key abbr="exc_sbs" smyth="2575">exclamation</key>
  <key abbr="prp_adj" smyth="2553">proper</key>
  <key abbr="mpr_adj">improper</key>
  <key abbr="pur_adj" smyth="2554">purpose</key>
  <key abbr="cau_adj" smyth="2555">cause</key>
  <key abbr="rsl_adj" smyth="2556-2559">result</key>
  <key abbr="cnd_adj" smyth="2560-2573">condition</key>
  <key abbr="pur_adv" smyth="2193-2206">purpose</key>
  <key abbr="cau_adv" smyth="2240-2248">cause</key>
  <key abbr="rsl_adv" smyth="2249-2278">result</key>
  <key abbr="cnd_adv" smyth="2279-2368">condition</key>
  <key abbr="cnc_adv" smyth="2369-2382">concessive</key>
  <key abbr="tmp_adv" smyth="2383-2461">temporal</key>
  <key abbr="cnd_adv" smyth="2462-2487">comparative</key>
  <!-- independent finite verb form, end -->
  
  <!-- participle, start -->
  <key abbr="att_prt" smyth="2049-2053">attributive</key>
  <key abbr="crc_prt" smyth="2054-2087">circumstantial</key>
  <key abbr="spp_prt" smyth="2088-2148">supplementary</key>
  <key abbr="prh_prt" smyth="2091">periphrastic</key>
  <key abbr="prp_prt" smyth="2553">proper</key>
  <key abbr="mpr_prt">improper</key>
  <key abbr="tim_att">time</key>
  <key abbr="mnn_att">manner</key>
  <key abbr="mea_att">measure</key>
  <key abbr="cau_att">cause</key>
  <key abbr="pur_att">purpose</key>
  <key abbr="cnc_att">concessive</key>
  <key abbr="cnd_att">condition</key>
  <key abbr="cmp_att">comparative</key>
  <key abbr="atd_att">any attendant circumstance</key>
  <key abbr="tim_crc" smyth="2061">time</key>
  <key abbr="mnn_crc" smyth="2062">manner</key>
  <key abbr="mea_crc" smyth="2063">measure</key>
  <key abbr="cau_crc" smyth="2064">cause</key>
  <key abbr="pur_crc" smyth="2065">purpose</key>
  <key abbr="cnc_crc" smyth="2066">concessive</key>
  <key abbr="cnd_crc" smyth="2067">consition</key>
  <key abbr="cmp_crc" smyth="2087">comparative</key>
  <key abbr="atd_crc" smyth="2068">any attendant circumstance</key>
  <key abbr="prt_inr" smyth="2106-2115;2123-2145">in indirect discourse</key>
  <key abbr="prt_not_inr" smyth="2094-2105;2123-2145">not in indirect discourse</key>
  <!-- participle, end -->
  
  <!-- infinitive, start -->
  <key abbr="inf_inn">independent</key>
  <key abbr="inf_dpd">dependent</key>
  <key abbr="nmn_art" smyth="2031">articular nominative</key>
  <key abbr="nmn_vrl">verbal nominative</key>
  <key abbr="gnt_art" smyth="2032">articular genitive</key>
  <key abbr="dtv_art" smyth="2033">articular dative</key>
  <key abbr="acc_art" smyth="2034">articular accusative</key>
  <key abbr="acc_vrl">verbal accusative</key>
  <key abbr="pur_vrl" smyth="2008-2010">purpose</key>
  <key abbr="rsl_vrl" smyth="2011">result</key>
  <key abbr="πρίν_inf" smyth="2453-2461">infinitive with πρίν</key>
  <!-- infinitive, end -->
  
  <!-- genitive, start -->
  <key abbr="inn_gnt" smyth="1407">independent</key>
  <key abbr="dpd_gnt" smyth="1289-1449">dependent</key>
  <key abbr="prp_gnt" smyth="1290-1390">proper</key>
  <key abbr="abl_gnt" smyth="1391-1411">ablatival</key>
  <key abbr="tim_plc_gnt" smyth="1444-1449">time and space</key>
  <key abbr="ἀμφί_περί_tpc_gnt">(with ἀμφί, περί) topic</key>
  <key abbr="διά_μέχρι_tim_ext_gnt">(with διά, μέχρι) time extension</key>
  <key abbr="διά_μέχρι_spc_ext_gnt">(with διά, μέχρι) space extension</key>
  <key abbr="ἀπό_ἐξ_cau_gnt">(with ἀπό, ἐξ) cause</key>
  <key abbr="ἀπό_διά_ἐξ_mns_gnt">(with ἀπό, διά, ἐξ) means or instrument</key>
  <key abbr="ἀπό_ἐξ_πρός_agn_gnt">(with ἀπό, ἐξ, πρός) agent</key>
  <key abbr="ἀπό_διά_ἐξ_μετά_mnn_gnt">(with ἀπό, διά, ἐξ, μετά) manner</key>
  <key abbr="μετά_ἄνευ_acm_gnt">(with μετά, ἄνευ) accompaniment</key>
  <key abbr="πρός_adv_gnt">(with πρός) advantage</key>
  <key abbr="uns_gnt">unspecified kind of genitive</key>
  <key abbr="pos_bln_gnt" smyth="1297-1305">possession or belonging</key>
  <key abbr="dvd_gnt" smyth="1306-1319;1341-1371">partitive</key>
  <key abbr="qlt_gnt" smyth="1320-1321">quality</key>
  <key abbr="exp_gnt" smyth="1322">explanation</key>
  <key abbr="mtr_cnt_gnt" smyth="1323-1324">material and content</key>
  <key abbr="mea_gnt" smyth="1325">measure</key>
  <key abbr="sbc_obc_gnt" smyth="1328-1335">subjective and objective</key>
  <key abbr="prc_val_gnt" smyth="1336;1372-1374">price and value</key>
  <key abbr="crm_acn_gnt" smyth="1375-1379">crime and accountability</key>
  <key abbr="cnn_gnt" smyth="1380-1381">connection</key>
  <key abbr="sbc_gnt" smyth="1330">subjective</key>
  <key abbr="obc_gnt" smyth="1331-1335">objective</key>
  <key abbr="tmp_str_pnt_gnt">temporal starting point</key>
  <key abbr="spr_gnt" smyth="1392-1400">separation</key>
  <key abbr="dst_cmp_gnt" smyth="1401-1404">distinction and comparison</key>
  <key abbr="cau_gnt" smyth="1405-1409">cause</key>
  <key abbr="pur_gnt" smyth="1408">purpose</key>
  <key abbr="src_gnt" smyth="1410-1411">source</key>
  <key abbr="tim_gnt" smyth="1444-1447">time</key>
  <key abbr="plc_gnt" smyth="1448-1449">place</key>
  <key abbr="exc_gnt" smyth="1407">exclamation</key>
  <!-- genitive, end -->
 
  <!-- dative, start -->
  <key abbr="dpd_dtv" smyth="1450-1550">dependent</key>
  <key abbr="prp_dtv" smyth="1457-1502">proper</key>
  <key abbr="ins_dtv" smyth="1503-1529">instrumental</key>
  <key abbr="lct_dtv" smyth="1530-1550">locative</key>
  <key abbr="ἐπί_pur_dtv">(with ἐπί) purpose</key>
  <key abbr="uns_dtv">unspecified kind of dative</key>
  <key abbr="drc_cmp_dtv" smyth="1460-1468">direct complement</key>
  <key abbr="inr_cmp_dtv" smyth="1469-1470">indirect complement</key>
  <key abbr="int_dtv" smyth="1474-1494">interest</key>
  <key abbr="rlt_dtv" smyth="1495-1498">relation</key>
  <key abbr="pos_dtv" smyth="1476-1480">possess(ion/or)</key>
  <key abbr="adv_dsd_dtv" smyth="1481-1485">advantage and disadvantage</key>
  <key abbr="fln_dtv" smyth="1486-1485">feeling</key>
  <key abbr="inc_avr_dsd" smyth="1487">dative with participle of inclination/aversion</key>
  <key abbr="agn_dtv" smyth="1488-1494">agent</key>
  <key abbr="rfr_dtv" smyth="1496-1497">reference</key>
  <key abbr="prt_exp_tim_dtv" smyth="1498">dative with participle expressing time</key>
  <key abbr="ins_mns_dtv" smyth="1507-1511">instrument/means</key>
  <key abbr="stn_jdg_dtv" smyth="1512">standard of judgement</key>
  <key abbr="mnn_dtv" smyth="1527">manner</key>
  <key abbr="mea_dff" smyth="1513-1515">measure of difference</key>
  <key abbr="rsp_dtv" smyth="1516">respect</key>
  <key abbr="cau_dtv" smyth="1520">cause</key>
  <key abbr="cmt_dtv" smyth="1521-1528">comitative</key>
  <key abbr="ass_dtv" smyth="1523">association</key>
  <key abbr="acm_dtv" smyth="1524-1525">accompaniment</key>
  <key abbr="mlt_acm_dtv" smyth="1526">military accompaniment</key>
  <key abbr="acm_crc_dtv" smyth="1524-1527">accompanying circumstance</key>
  <key abbr="tim_dtv" smyth="1539-1543">time</key>
  <key abbr="plc_dtv" smyth="1531-1538">place</key>
  <!-- dative, end -->

  <!-- nominative, start -->
  <key abbr="inn_nmn" smyth="938-939">independent</key>
  <key abbr="dpd_nmn" smyth="940-941">dependent</key>
  <key abbr="ctc_nmn">citation</key>
  <key abbr="pnd_nmn" smyth="941">nominativus pendens</key>
  <key abbr="exc_nmn" smyth="1288">exclamation</key>
  <!-- nominative, end -->

  <!-- accusative, start -->
  <key abbr="eff_acc" smyth="1563-1577">effected object</key>
  <key abbr="aff_acc" smyth="1590-1598">affected object</key>
  <key abbr="ext_acc" smyth="1580-1587">extent</key>
  <key abbr="trm_acc" smyth="1588-1589">terminal</key>
  <key abbr="rsp_acc" smyth="1600-1605">respect</key>
  <key abbr="ἀνά_εἰς_μετά_κατά_παρά_πρός_ὑπό_ὑπέρ_trm_tim_acc">(with ἀνά, εἰς, μετά, κατά, παρά, πρός, ὑπό, ὑπέρ) time terminal</key>
  <key abbr="ἀνά_εἰς_κατά_mnn_acc">(with ἀνά, εἰς, κατά) manner</key>
  <key abbr="διά_παρά_cau_acc">(with διά, παρά) cause</key>
  <key abbr="διά_εἰς_ἐπί_κατά_πρός_pur_acc">(with διά, εἰς, ἐπί, κατά, πρός) purpose</key>
  <key abbr="εἰς_ἐπί_παρά_ὑπέρ_mea_acc">(with εἰς, ἐπί, παρά, ὑπέρ, ὑπέρ) measure</key>
  <key abbr="πρός_stn_jdg_acc">(with πρός) standard judgment</key>
  <key abbr="uns_acc">unspecified kind of accusative</key>
  <key abbr="cgn_rsl_acc" smyth="1563-1579">cognate/result</key>
  <key abbr="tim_acc" smyth="1582-1587">time</key>
  <key abbr="spc_acc" smyth="1581">space</key>
  <key abbr="inr_acc" smyth="2016-2024">indirect discourse</key>
  <key abbr="not_inr_acc" smyth="1989-2007">not in indirect discourse</key>
  <key abbr="cmd_acc" smyth="2013">command</key>
  <key abbr="wsh_acc" smyth="2014">wish</key>
  <key abbr="exc_acc" smyth="2015">exclamation</key>
  <key abbr="abs_inf_acc" smyth="2012">absolute infinitive</key>
  <key abbr="ell_acc" smyth="1599">elliptical</key>
  <key abbr="dpd_acc" smyth="1551-1653">dependent</key>
  <key abbr="inn_acc" smyth="1599">independent</key>
  <!-- accusative, end -->

  <!-- adverb, start -->
  <key abbr='adv_tim_gnt_dtv'>time</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_plc_gnt_dtv'>place</key>
  <key abbr='adv_tim_acc_ext'>time (extent)</key>
  <key abbr='adv_tim_trm_acc'>time (terminal)</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_spc_acc_ext'>space (extent)</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_spc_trm_acc'>space (terminal)</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_tmp_str_pnt'>temporal starting point (from)</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_spr'>separation</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_src'>source</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_cau'>cause</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_rsl'>result</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_mnn'>manner</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_mea'>measure</key>
  <key abbr='adv_ins_mns'>instrument/means</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_pur'>purpose</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_cnc'>concessive</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_ngt'>negation</key>
  <key abbr='adv_mdl'>modal</key> 
  <key abbr='adv_uns'>unspecified</key> 
  <!-- adverb, end -->
  
  <key abbr="I_do_not_know">I do not know</key>
</legenda> 
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Adverb / adverbial leads to contextualised impressionism.

Post by Stephen Hughes »

When dealing with grammar in anything beyond the most simplistic terms, "Adverb" is a word that I would like to see taken out of grammatical terminology.

Applying the terms adverb and adverbial to a whole range of things is a multiplication by zero - the most drastic reduction in diversity by a single operation.

It is such an umbrella term that it seems to give readers a false freedom to add "-ly" and then take things in any sense imaginable. It is especially misleading when used of prepositional phrases, where instead of combing through the senses of the particular adverb, the term lends itself to impression that readers have a licence to freedom of interpretation based on a form of contextualised impressionism.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Carlson
Posts: 3351
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
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Re: Adverb / adverbial leads to contextualised impressionism

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stephen Hughes wrote:When dealing with grammar in anything beyond the most simplistic terms, "Adverb" is a word that I would like to see taken out of grammatical terminology.
I tend to agree, though I don't how feasible it is. To the extent that is a valid category, it is very heterogenenous and thus the label of adverb(ial) isn't very informative.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Taxonomical adjustments in the genus adverbia

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:When dealing with grammar in anything beyond the most simplistic terms, "Adverb" is a word that I would like to see taken out of grammatical terminology.
I tend to agree, though I don't how feasible it is. To the extent that is a valid category, it is very heterogenenous and thus the label of adverb(ial) isn't very informative.
Somebody intelligent (like Maubrey) needs to adjust the taxonomical arrangement of adverbs. In Biology splitting and regrouping happens relatively often - relative to classical grammar that is. I hope, however, the names they are given are less odious.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4165
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
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Re: Taxonomical adjustments in the genus adverbia

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Hughes wrote:Somebody intelligent (like Maubrey) needs to adjust the taxonomical arrangement of adverbs. In Biology splitting and regrouping happens relatively often - relative to classical grammar that is. I hope, however, the names they are given are less odious.
Should we take a stab at that here?

An adverb itself is fairly well-defined, no?

The adverbial function of clauses much less so. Smyth give this start at a taxonomy for clauses that function adverbially:
In an adverbial complex sentence the subordinate clause denotes some one of the following adverbial relations: purpose (2193), cause (2240), result (2249), condition (2280), concession (2369), time (2383), comparison (2462).
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Practically speaking.

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Even if Maubrey has something up his sleeve, he won't be a dude ex machina on this.

In the case of prepositional adverbial phrases, they are highly nuanced and flexible.

Of course at the moment there is nothing better on offer. Perhaps in the future there will be an agreed upon breakdown of classes, but for now this is in its infancy.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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