οὗτοι οἱ λόγοι ἀληθινοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσιν (predicate position?)

Andrew Chapman
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Re: οὗτοι οἱ λόγοι ἀληθινοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσιν (predicate positi

Post by Andrew Chapman »

David, thank you very much for your detailed and helpful comments, and sorry for the couple of glitches in my previous post.
David Lim wrote:
Andrew Chapman wrote:With regard to 1 Peter 1.18, Robertson (2nd ed, p. 656) suggests that πατροπαραδότου 'may very well be predicative' - I am not sure I understand that, does he mean something like 'from your empty way of life [which was] handed down from your fathers':
εἰδότες ὅτι οὐ φθαρτοῖς, ἀργυρίῳ ἢ χρυσίῳ, ἐλυτρώθητε ἐκ τῆς ματαίας ὑμῶν ἀναστροφῆς πατροπαραδότου
I don't get what Robertson means by "predicative". In my view, as in 1 Cor 10:3, the core noun in 1 Pet 1:18 is "αναστροφης πατροπαραδοτου", which is then modified by "υμων" and then "ματαιας", resulting in "your vain { manner of life handed down from forefathers }", which answers the question "who has that manner of life handed down from forefathers, and of what kind is it?" If it had been "εκ της ματαιας υμων αναστροφης της πατροπαραδοτου", it would have meant "out of { your vain manner of life } ( that is handed down from [your] forefathers )", which answers the question "from where did you get your vain manner of life?".
Thanks, I can see that, and it seems to fit with the idea that the noun and the second adjective are considered as a single idea in these cases. Looking more carefully at Winer Moulton, p. 166 (3rd ed), Moulton's note 3:
[1 Peter 1.18 falls] directly under a rule thus given by Kruger (p.121): "When an attributive is inserted between the article and the noun, a second attributive sometimes follows the noun without a second article"
David Lim wrote:
Andrew Chapman wrote:Perhaps the clearest example is John 12.9:

Ἔγνω οὖν [ὁ] ὄχλος πολὺς ἐκ τῶν Ἰουδαίων ὅτι ἐκεῖ ἐστιν...

where Winer and Robertson agree that the words coalesce to form a single idea [but isn't that generally true of an adjective modifying a noun - don't 'green' and 'carpet' coalesce to form the single idea of a green carpet?]
I'm not sure what you mean here. The NU manuscripts are divided, and SBLGNT goes with having no article. If the article is not actually there, then there is no problem since adjectives typically don't take an article when modifying an indefinite noun. I'd prefer to have examples with clear textual support before any generalizations.

Back to the original question, based on my viewpoint I think "ουτοι οι λογοι αληθινοι του θεου εισιν" in Rev 19:9 means "{ ουτοι οι λογοι } { αληθινοι του θεου } εισιν" = "these words are true [words] of God", in parallel with Rev 21:5 and Rev 22:6. But as Stephen Carlson pointed out it's hard to guess when we don't know whether this author is following ordinary Greek grammar here!
I meant that I could not understand their point, because it seemed to me that an adjective plus the noun that it modifies generally do coalesce to form a single idea. I may have missed the thought that the idea of πολυς is contained within οχλος - I am not sure if that is what they meant.

Robertson quotes Jebb on Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus 1199 in support of the single idea thesis for John 12.9:
τὰν γαμψώνυχα παρθένον χρησμῳδόν (the crooked-talonned prophesying maiden - 'the maiden with crooked talons who sang darkly' [Jebb])
upon which Jebb comments: 'The place of the second adjective may be explained by viewing παρθένον-χρησμῳδόν as a single idea'

but this comes under Kruger's rule above, and the point may be, in line I think with your alternative bracketing possibilities, that she is to be conceived of as a prophetess with crooked talons, rather than a maiden with crooked talons who prophesies.

J.H. Moulton also points to the difference that the first adjective makes [Prologomena 84]:
A very curious misplacement of the article occurs in the ὁ ὄχλος πολύς of John 12.9. As Sir R. C. Jebb notes on Sophocles OT 1199 f., the noun and adjective may be fused into a single composite idea; but Jebb's exx. (like 1 Peter 1.18 and the cases cited in W. F. Moulton's note, WM 166) illustrate only the addition of a second adjective after the groups article-adjective-noun..
Your rendering makes sense to me, if it is OK to treat αληθινοι as a substantive, if that is the way to put it.

Andrew
Stephen Hughes
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Re: οὗτοι οἱ λόγοι ἀληθινοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσιν (predicate positi

Post by Stephen Hughes »

It may help you to think of οὗτος as a grammatical function, rather than a glossed meaning. Here are a few idiosyncratic things that I personally find helpful to understand this (foreign) word (in a foreign language syntactic and narrative context).

Remember that an οὗτος is a "pointing in" demonstrative not a "pointing at" one. That is to say that it is supplied with meaning from the thing it points to. I find that it οὗτος (and οὕτως for that matter) easier to understand when glossed as "[the one(s)], which was/were in narrative spotlight just now". In the adjectival usage, there is no need for the "[the one(s)]" part of that gloss as the article makes sense there. It is a grammar word with a syntactic function in the sentence, and that syntactic function differs slightly from our English "that" that regularly glosses it. In short, because it has a textual function, it is not possible to understand οὗτος/οὕτως in a single verse translation.

Let me demonstrate how οὗτος can be understood in narrative context using a few of the verses Jonathan found with the demonstrative use - I'll write my Sentence by sentence gloss (artificially removed from narrative context) understanding of them in green and a "contextual" one in floral lavender (of course the second translations are not "right" in a whole passage translation, but explicate the narrative function of the οὗτος if only one verse were read). It involves putting the narrative spotlight into the οὗτος:
Jonathan Robie wrote:
  • Luke 18:14 κατέβη οὗτος δεδικαιωμένος εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ παρ’ ἐκεῖνον·
    The one who was just now in the narrative spotlight went back down to his home made right with God, rather than the one who was previously in the narrative spotlight.
    The one whom we saw beating his breast and asking for mercy went home right with God, but not so the one whom we saw speaking to God presumptuously thanking him for a righteousness claimed to have.
  • John 1:41 εὑρίσκει οὗτος πρῶτον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τὸν ἴδιον Σίμωνα
    The one who was just in narrative spotlight first went to find his own brother Simon.
    The first thing that this man who had just met Jesus for himself did was to find his own brother Simon.
  • Acts 9:15 σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς ἐστίν μοι οὗτος τοῦ βαστάσαι τὸ ὄνομά μου ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ,
    The one who was just in the narrative spotlight is my hand-picked container to carry ...
    The man whom you have just expressed such deep and valid concerns about is my hand-picked ...
This also occurs for questions:
  • Matthew 8:27 Ποταπός ἐστιν οὗτος ὅτι καὶ οἱ ἄνεμοι καὶ ἡ θάλασσα αὐτῷ
    ὑπακούουσιν;
    What sort of person is the one who was just now in the narrative spotlight
    What sort of person is this guy who was just now portrayed as having the wind and the sea subjecting themselves to him, that even the winds and the sea are obedient to him?
  • Matthew 21:10 Τίς ἐστιν οὗτος;
    Who is the one who was just in the narrative spotlight?
    Who is this person for whom we have just seen palm branches and coats laid out on the road?
  • Luke 4:22 οὐχὶ υἱός ἐστιν Ἰωσὴφ οὗτος;
    Isn't the one who was just now in the narrative spotlight simply the son of Joseph?
    Isn't this man who just read the scripture in the first person and meant it Joseph's son?
...
  • John 18:30 εἰ μὴ ἦν οὗτος κακὸν ποιῶν, οὐκ ἄν σοι παρεδώκαμεν αὐτόν
    Here the αὐτόν refers to the same person, but performs a syntactic function in the immediate context of the verb (παρεδώκαμεν).
For adjectival usages, I find it helpful to let the article (a type of demonstrative anyway) have a force as "the" (in fact a balancer), thus using the the οὗτος merely in its referent sense (because it doesn't need to balance itself (i.e. become a pivot) in the syntax). Let me use the two examples that Andrew pulled from Funk as examples
Andrew Chapman wrote:Funk BIGHG, 684.3, where he gives as an example:

Ταῦτα τὰ ῥήματα ἐλάλησεν ἐν τῷ γαζοφυλακίῳ διδάσκων ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ· [John 8.20a]
He spoke the words which were just in the narrative spotlight in the treasury as he was (perhaps even wont to be) teaching in the temple;
He spoke these words (which were) about the validity of witness in the treasury ...

where clearly it has to be 'he spoke these words..'.

Funk also gives an example (684.4) with οὗτος in the other predicate position, and then adjectives in the predicate position:

Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄνθρωπος ἦν ἐν Ἰερουσαλὴμ ᾧ ὄνομα Συμεὼν καὶ ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος δίκαιος καὶ εὐλαβὴς προσδεχόμενος παράκλησιν τοῦ Ἰσραήλ, .. [Luke 2.25]
The man who was just in the narrative spotlight was upright and observant (as he lived) expecting the ...
The man who was just mentioned as living in Jerusalem, Symeon by name was upright and ...

Funk cites just:

ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος δίκαιος καὶ εὐλαβὴς

and gives the English as:

This man [was] just and righteous
Those renderings / that understanding is mostly to understand the syntactic function (as it differs from English "that"), rather than make the best English possible.

[Another small point is that I think ἀληθινοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ as an adjectivalisation (adjectival application) of the phrase ὁ θεὸς ἀληθής ἐστιν. to the words that had just been described in the narrative. That is to say that the words derived their truth from God being true.]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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