πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

cwconrad
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by cwconrad » June 29th, 2015, 6:05 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
cwconrad wrote:But the fact is, we've been over this before; it's been forgotten or ignored -- and the question is asked again.
My current signature wrote:τῶν δ᾽ εἴ τί σοι ψελλόν τε καὶ δυσεύρετον,
ἐπανδίπλαζε καὶ σαφῶς ἐκμάνθανε: (Aesch. P.V. 816-7)
Touché! It’s a nice challenge. Let me throw it back at you: the lines you’ve cited are spoken by Prometheus to Io at the end of a prophecy of the ordeal of far travels while she’s being perpetually harassed by Hera’s gadfly before her ultimate liberation from bovinity and Jovian lust and her final salvation is achieved. Prometheus is being graciously revealing to Io, the maiden-turned-cow, of her destiny that is terrifying even if it does end in redemption. So Prometheus, after expounding her future, tells her that he will fill in any details concerning which she may want some clarification. And then he adds -- shackled as he is to a rocky cliff iin Scythia, “After all, I’ve got all the time in the world at my disposal!”
σχολὴ δὲ πλείων ἢ θέλω πάρεστί μοι. (Aesch. P.V. 818)
Do you in like manner have all that time on your hands?
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 29th, 2015, 2:42 pm

cwconrad wrote:
σχολὴ δὲ πλείων ἢ θέλω πάρεστί μοι. (Aesch. P.V. 818)
Do you in like manner have all that time on your hands?
Hands, no. I work a long hours with a few, if any days a month for rest. I do own my mind, however, and keep it undistracted by through traffic nor trapped by repetitive / unproductive loops.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 30th, 2015, 2:05 pm

cwconrad wrote:If you were told -- that is to say, someone says to you in precisely these words: "Get healed from that disease!", what would be your response? Helpless waiting? Do you have no responsibility after you've been given a command? If I were given that command, I think I'd get to a physician as soon as possible, or to the emergency room, or whatever. I would not, I think, sit down and wait for a lightning stroke or visitation from on high. I take it that an imperative is a call to the addressee to do something.
The literal Greek of καθαρίσθητι could mean. "Go get yourself declared ritually cleaned." Then the whole healing potentiality or actuality (depending on one's understanding of the divine act) would be involved in the Θέλω.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by cwconrad » June 30th, 2015, 2:19 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
cwconrad wrote:If you were told -- that is to say, someone says to you in precisely these words: "Get healed from that disease!", what would be your response? Helpless waiting? Do you have no responsibility after you've been given a command? If I were given that command, I think I'd get to a physician as soon as possible, or to the emergency room, or whatever. I would not, I think, sit down and wait for a lightning stroke or visitation from on high. I take it that an imperative is a call to the addressee to do something.
The literal Greek of καθαρίσθητι could mean. "Go get yourself declared ritually cleaned." Then the whole healing potentiality or actuality (depending on one's understanding of the divine act) would be involved in the Θέλω.
That interpretation would still involve an obligation on the part of the addressee of the command to undertake an action, to take an initiative to get the ball rolling on the healing process or ritual cleansing.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 30th, 2015, 8:01 pm

cwconrad wrote:That interpretation would still involve an obligation on the part of the addressee of the command to undertake an action, to take an initiative to get the ball rolling on the healing process or ritual cleansing.
Luke 5:13b, 14 wrote:Καὶ εὐθέως ἡ λέπρα ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ. 14 Καὶ αὐτὸς παρήγγειλεν αὐτῷ μηδενὶ εἰπεῖν· ἀλλὰ ἀπελθὼν δεῖξον σεαυτὸν τῷ ἱερεῖ, καὶ προσένεγκε περὶ τοῦ καθαρισμοῦ σου, καθὼς προσέταξεν Μωσῆ, εἰς μαρτύριον αὐτοῖς.
The Lucian account has those added details after the καθαρίσθητι.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Girgis Boshra
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by Girgis Boshra » July 4th, 2015, 12:06 pm

cwconrad wrote:
Girgis Boshra wrote:Dear, Stephen Hughes
Thanks for your notes, I don’t deny the nature of the action of the verb that is being commanded to be carried out, but the tense in non indicative has a semantic function, not expressing the cosmic time, So I mean, when the lord use the present imperative the context was about specific action of the imperative (πορεύθητι ἐπὶ τὴν ῥύμην τὴν καλουμένην Εὐθεῖαν) but in using the aorist imperative the context was about general action ( Πορεύου, ὅτι σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς μοι ἐστὶν οὗτος) you can find the same usage in Mark 2:9 (Ἔγειρε καὶ ἆρον τὸν κράβαττόν σου) the Lord uses present imperative (Ἔγειρε) when he ordered him to raise up (and he will be always raised up for he has healed) but he used the aorist imperative (ἆρον) for this action will be for a once.
I don't quite understand what you're arguing here. You seem to be referring to πορεύθητι as a present imperative and to πορεύου as an aorist imperative, when the truth is the reverse: πορεύου is present imperative 2 sg. and πορεύθητι is aorist imperative 2 sg. I take the sense of πορεύου as "set out on your trip" -- "start traveling" -- while the sense of πορεύθητι is indicative of the action as a whole: "You are to travel ... "

Nor do I understand the proposition that ἔγειρε has some sort of permanent implication. In Mk 2:9 the cripple is being told quite simply to get up on his feet or "start getting up" and then the aorist imperative ἆρον indicates the complete action: "pick it up!"
Thanks for your correction, I agree with you.
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George F Somsel
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by George F Somsel » July 4th, 2015, 12:23 pm

Carl Conrad wrote:
Nor do I understand the proposition that ἔγειρε has some sort of permanent implication. In Mk 2:9 the cripple is being told quite simply to get up on his feet or "start getting up" and then the aorist imperative ἆρον indicates the complete action: "pick it up!"
In this instance it is clear that a change of posture is entailed in the action commanded, but I would hesitate to postulate a literal standing up in all cases since this is a frequent form of speech in Hebrew. A similar word is even used in Lk 9.18
ἀναστὰς πορεύσομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ ἐρῶ αὐτῷ· πάτερ, ἥμαρτον εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ ἐνώπιόν σου
where I don't think that a change of posture is of any particular importance. What is intended there is an inceptive "begin doing it."
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cwconrad
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by cwconrad » July 4th, 2015, 12:43 pm

George F Somsel wrote:Carl Conrad wrote:
Nor do I understand the proposition that ἔγειρε has some sort of permanent implication. In Mk 2:9 the cripple is being told quite simply to get up on his feet or "start getting up" and then the aorist imperative ἆρον indicates the complete action: "pick it up!"
In this instance it is clear that a change of posture is entailed in the action commanded, but I would hesitate to postulate a literal standing up in all cases since this is a frequent form of speech in Hebrew. A similar word is even used in Lk 9.18
ἀναστὰς πορεύσομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ ἐρῶ αὐτῷ· πάτερ, ἥμαρτον εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ ἐνώπιόν σου
where I don't think that a change of posture is of any particular importance. What is intended there is an inceptive "begin doing it."
I think that the sense of the verb ἀναστῆναι in Lk 9:18 is not "rise (from a reclining or seated position)" but "move off (from a settled position)" -- i.e. "get up and go away". That's a very common usage of ἁναστῆναι/ἀναστῆσαι for changing residence of an individual or a family or larger group.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

George F Somsel
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by George F Somsel » July 5th, 2015, 9:47 am

Carl W. Conrad wrote:
I think that the sense of the verb ἀναστῆναι in Lk 9:18 is not "rise (from a reclining or seated position)" but "move off (from a settled position)" -- i.e. "get up and go away". That's a very common usage of ἁναστῆναι/ἀναστῆσαι for changing residence of an individual or a family or larger group.
Basically, that is correct. It might be rendered "Get going" in many cases.
ק֥וּם לֵךְ֙ פַּדֶּ֣נָֽה אֲרָ֔ם בֵּ֥יתָה בְתוּאֵ֖ל אֲבִ֣י אִמֶּ֑ךָ וְקַח־לְךָ֤ מִשָּׁם֙ אִשָּׁ֔ה מִבְּנ֥וֹת לָבָ֖ן אֲחִ֥י אִמֶּֽךָ׃

ἀναστὰς ἀπόδραθι εἰς τὴν Μεσοποταμίαν εἰς τὸν οἶκον Βαθουὴλ τοῦ πατρὸς τῆς μητρός σου, καὶ λάβε ἐκεῖθεν σεαυτῷ γυναῖκα ἐκ τῶν θυγατέρων Λαβὰν τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ τῆς μητρός σου.
Ge 28:2.
אָנֹכִ֤י הָאֵל֙ בֵּֽית־אֵ֔ל אֲשֶׁ֨ר מָשַׁ֤חְתָּ שָּׁם֙ מַצֵּבָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֨ר נָדַ֥רְתָּ לִּ֛י שָׁ֖ם נֶ֑דֶר עַתָּ֗ה ק֥וּם צֵא֙ מִן־הָאָ֣רֶץ הַזֹּ֔את וְשׁ֖וּב אֶל־אֶ֥רֶץ מוֹלַדְתֶּֽךָ׃

 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ θεὸς ὁ ὀφθείς σοι ἐν τόπῳ θεοῦ, οὗ ἤλειψάς μοι ἐκεῖ στήλην καὶ ηὔξω μοι ἐκεῖ εὐχήν· νῦν οὖν ἀνάστηθι καὶ ἔξελθε ἐκ τῆς γῆς ταύτης, καὶ ἄπελθε εἰς τὴν γῆν τῆς γενέσεώς σου, καὶ ἔσομαι μετὰ σοῦ.
Ge 31:13.
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Girgis Boshra
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Re: πορεύθητι and πορεύου Acts 9:11 & 15

Post by Girgis Boshra » July 21st, 2015, 4:45 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Girgis Boshra wrote:you can find the same usage in Mark 2:9 (Ἔγειρε καὶ ἆρον τὸν κράβαττόν σου) the Lord uses present imperative (Ἔγειρε) when he ordered him to raise up (and he will be always raised up for he has healed) but he used the aorist imperative (ἆρον) for this action will be for a once.
Matthew 8:3 wrote:Καταβάντι δὲ αὐτῷ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄρους , ἠκολούθησαν αὐτῷ ὄχλοι πολλοί·2 καὶ ἰδού, λεπρὸς ἐλθὼν προσεκύνει αὐτῷ, λέγων, Κύριε, ἐὰν θέλῃς, δύνασαί με καθαρίσαι. 3 Καὶ ἐκτείνας τὴν χεῖρα, ἥψατο αὐτοῦ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, λέγων, Θέλω, καθαρίσθητι. Καὶ εὐθέως ἐκαθαρίσθη αὐτοῦ ἡ λέπρα.
Girgis Boshra: I tried following your idea through a number of chapters, but couldn't recognise the pattern of usage that you are describing. Here is another story of a healing. The man suffering from Hansen's disease uses the aorist to describe the how he understands how his skin condition will clear up. δύνασαί με καθαρίσαι. Jesus uses the aorist imperative καθαρίσθητι too. The (aorist) tense is also used in other places that this story is told (Mark 1:40-42 and Luke 5:12-14). How do you understand the aorists in this story?

Carl Conrad (and/or others of the subject-affectedness faction): I have a question about middle imperatives. In your subject-affectedness model of the verb, is there is there an implication that the one issuing the command will be involved in the carrying out of the subject-affected model. I have (until now) read this story as a little "off-handed". In my English understanding at least, καθαρίσθητι comes across as somewhat uninvolved. The man suffering from the disease asks Jesus for a very personal healing, and the subject-affected imperative seems to be an impersonal (uninvolved) response. Does the Greek have any hint of a distainful feeling in this voice?
I do not mean that the present imperative always used in every healing story, but in non-indicative moods, the Greek does not tenses, you can see that in the tense of the infinitve in 2Jo 1:12 ( Πολλὰ ἔχων ὑμῖν γράφειν οὐκ ἐβουλήθην διὰ χάρτου καὶ μέλανος, ἀλλὰ ἐλπίζω γενέσθαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς καὶ στόμα πρὸς στόμα λαλῆσαι, ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν πεπληρωμένη ᾖ.) He uses the present infinitive (γράφειν) to express a permenant situation (He always has something to write), but at the same situation he uses the aorist infinitive (λαλῆσαι) to express a spacific situation for a once.
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