οὔ or οὐ

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Girgis Boshra
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οὔ or οὐ

Post by Girgis Boshra » January 4th, 2016, 10:39 am

Why in John 1: 21 uses οὔ not οὐ
καὶ ἠρώτησαν αὐτόν• τί οὖν; σὺ Ἠλίας εἶ; καὶ λέγει• οὐκ εἰμί. ὁ προφήτης εἶ σύ; καὶ ἀπεκρίθη• οὔ.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: οὔ or οὐ

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 4th, 2016, 11:49 am

Girgis Boshra wrote:Why in John 1: 21 uses οὔ not οὐ
καὶ ἠρώτησαν αὐτόν• τί οὖν; σὺ Ἠλίας εἶ; καὶ λέγει• οὐκ εἰμί. ὁ προφήτης εἶ σύ; καὶ ἀπεκρίθη• οὔ.
I think this explanation is correct:
Proclitics are normally written without an accent and do not affect the accentuation of the following word. But a proclitic does receive an acute accent when it is followed by an enclitic (defined on the next screen). Also, the proclitic οὐ receives an acute accent when it occurs idiomatically at the end of a phrase, before punctuation.
And here is the relevant section from Smyth:
180. A proclitic sometimes takes an accent, thus:

a. οὐ at the end of a sentence: φῄς, ἢ οὔ; do you say so or not? πῶς γὰρ οὔ; for why not? Also οὔ no standing alone.

b. ἐξ, ἐν, and εἰς receive an acute in poetry when they follow the word to which they belong and stand at the end of the verse: ““κακῶν ἔξ” out of evils” Ξ 472.

c. ὡς as becomes ὥς in poetry when it follows its noun: θεὸς ὥς as a god. ὡς standing for οὕτως is written ὥς even in prose (οὐδ᾽ ὥς not even thus).

d. When the proclitic precedes an enclitic (183 e): ἔν τισι.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: οὔ or οὐ

Post by Stephen Carlson » January 4th, 2016, 6:34 pm

In short, οὔ is accented when it means "no" as an answer.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: οὔ or οὐ

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 4th, 2016, 6:50 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:In short, οὔ is accented when it means "no" as an answer.
Interesting, we have two rules that lead to an accent here. BDAG states the above rule in the definition of οὔ, sense (1), and it's illustrated in sentences like this:
Matthew 5:37 wrote:ἔστω δὲ ὁ λόγος ὑμῶν ναὶ ναί, οὒ οὔ
How does that interact with the rule that Smyth just gave? I gather that it always has the accent when it means "no" as an answer, but also has an accent when it is at the end of a sentence or when it stands alone, even when it does not mean "no" as an answer?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Carlson
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Re: οὔ or οὐ

Post by Stephen Carlson » January 4th, 2016, 7:07 pm

I think Smyth's rules for accenting proclitics is confusing and a bit backwards. A word can't be a proclitic if it stands alone or at the end of the sentence. By definition. Smyth's rule is formulated against the diachronic development. These words were originally orthotone, and they lost their accent when they preceded the words they modify, often with a change in word class (e.g., from adverb to preposition). Greek has several words that mean something different between their orthotone and clitic accentuations (compare τίς and τις).
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: οὔ or οὐ

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 4th, 2016, 7:38 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:I think Smyth's rules for accenting proclitics is confusing and a bit backwards. A word can't be a proclitic if it stands alone or at the end of the sentence. By definition. Smyth's rule is formulated against the diachronic development. These words were originally orthotone, and they lost their accent when they preceded the words they modify, often with a change in word class (e.g., from adverb to preposition). Greek has several words that mean something different between their orthotone and clitic accentuations (compare τίς and τις).
But can't οὔ stand alone or at the end of the sentence without meaning "no" as an answer? How would you interpret Smyth's examples φῄς, ἢ οὔ; and πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Carlson
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Re: οὔ or οὐ

Post by Stephen Carlson » January 4th, 2016, 7:58 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I think Smyth's rules for accenting proclitics is confusing and a bit backwards. A word can't be a proclitic if it stands alone or at the end of the sentence. By definition. Smyth's rule is formulated against the diachronic development. These words were originally orthotone, and they lost their accent when they preceded the words they modify, often with a change in word class (e.g., from adverb to preposition). Greek has several words that mean something different between their orthotone and clitic accentuations (compare τίς and τις).
But can't οὔ stand alone or at the end of the sentence without meaning "no" as an answer? How would you interpret Smyth's examples φῄς, ἢ οὔ; and πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
I think you're trying to puzzle out the converse of the implication I originally gave. Instead of meaning ("no") --> form (orthotone), you're looking at form (orthotone) --> meaning, and finding (correctly) that is it is not an equivalence.. Here, I think the answer is that the orthotone οὔ is polysemous among a couple of related meanings, of which the answer "no" is the most prominent.

(Note that there is a polysemy even in the English not, where I'm afraid not does not mean "I am not afraid" but "I'm afraid that is not true"; it is this kind of not that Smyth's examples of sentence-final οὔ pick up on.)
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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