εαν and δ αν

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Alan Bunning
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εαν and δ αν

Post by Alan Bunning » March 29th, 2016, 4:22 pm

Continuing the previous idea, for εαν we learn that it is krasis for what once was ει αν, but is now never rendered as ει αν anymore, but always appears as one word (at least in the New Testament). On the other hand, δ αν never appears as one word, but always appears as two separate words (and δε αν does not appear anywhere in the New Testament). So would you say that the epsilon elided and that is why it is still 2 words? While you would not make the same argument with ει αν, because ει is a dipthon (and you would not elide the iota) and thus it is krasis?
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: εαν and δ αν

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 29th, 2016, 6:33 pm

The basic difference between elision and crasis, is that elision loses the last vowel of the first word in favor of keeping the vowel of the second word, while crasis involves the loss or alteration of the initial vowel of the second word, and the maintenance or alteration of the last vowel of the first word. As δέ does not affect the initial vowel of the following word, it does not participate in crasis, only elision. Traditionally, elision is spelled as two words and crasis as one, but phonologically they are both pronounced under the intonation contour of a single prosodic word. Whether the distinction between elision and crasis is something you want to deal with is something you have decide for yourself. I don't know the purpose of your work. Personally, I see linguistic categories as fractal: no matter how finely you set up the categories ("one word or two"?), there will always be cases that don't fit.

The other thing you should be aware of is that ἐάν is sometimes spelled as ἄν, especially in John. This in fact will be become the Modern Greek form.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: εαν and δ αν

Post by Barry Hofstetter » March 30th, 2016, 11:28 am

Alan Bunning wrote:Continuing the previous idea, for εαν we learn that it is krasis for what once was ει αν, but is now never rendered as ει αν anymore, but always appears as one word (at least in the New Testament). On the other hand, δ αν never appears as one word, but always appears as two separate words (and δε αν does not appear anywhere in the New Testament). So would you say that the epsilon elided and that is why it is still 2 words? While you would not make the same argument with ει αν, because ει is a dipthon (and you would not elide the iota) and thus it is krasis?
From LSJ:

ἐάν
ἐάν (so early Attic Inscrr., as IG12.3.20, εἰάν sts. after B.C. 400, ib.22.28.17, cf. PEleph.1.8,10 (iv B.C.)), also contr. ἤν and ἄν,
v. ἤν, ἄν (B) [ᾱ], which by crasis with καί become κἄν:—if haply, if, regularly folld. by subj.: for its use and for examples, v. εἰ B. 11, and ἄν (A) B.1.1.
in Hellenistic and late Greek, = ἄν after relative Pronouns and Conjunctions, as ὃς ἐάν whosoever, LXX Ge.15.14, PTeb. 107.8 (ii B. C.), Ev.Matt.5.19, al.; ὅσος ἐάν PPetr.3p.120 (iii B.C.), Ev.Matt.18.18; ὅστις ἐάν Ph.1.220, M.Ant.9.23; ὅπου ἐάν Ev.Matt. 8.19, etc.; ὅθεν ἐάν Gp.1.3.3: folld. by ind., LXX 1 Ki.2.14. [The second syll. of ἐάν is long, S.OC1407, Ar.V.228, Sopat.6.9.]

It's not really clear to me if in fact it is a "joining" of εἰ and ἄν. Things are not always as they appear...
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Alan Bunning
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Re: εαν and δ αν

Post by Alan Bunning » March 30th, 2016, 2:14 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:It's not really clear to me if in fact it is a "joining" of εἰ and ἄν. Things are not always as they appear...
Middle Liddell said: ἐάν compounded of εἰ ἄν ἐα?ν contracts into ἤν and ἄν
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: εαν and δ αν

Post by Stephen Hughes » March 30th, 2016, 7:31 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:The other thing you should be aware of is that ἐάν is sometimes spelled as ἄν, especially in John. This in fact will be become the Modern Greek form.
Alan, how does your algorithm decide which ἄν a given homonym needs to be referenced to?

Stephen, both forms are used in Modern Greek.
Triantafyllides wrote:αν [án] & εάν [eán] σύνδ. : ...
http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/ ... %CE%BD&dq=
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Alan Bunning
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Re: εαν and δ αν

Post by Alan Bunning » March 31st, 2016, 4:33 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Alan, how does your algorithm decide which ἄν a given homonym needs to be referenced to?
It tries to follow how the modern texts have been parsed. But for any variants, it uses statistical guessing and I have to fix the errors by hand.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: εαν and δ αν

Post by Stephen Hughes » April 1st, 2016, 4:37 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:The other thing you should be aware of is that ἐάν is sometimes spelled as ἄν, especially in John. This in fact will be become the Modern Greek form.
...

Stephen, both forms are used in Modern Greek.
Triantafyllides wrote:αν [án] & εάν [eán] σύνδ. : ...
http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/ ... %CE%BD&dq=
What has happened in Modern Greek with the "if"s is that the ει has been lost (except in a few fossilised expressions).
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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