Expressing the Future

Paul-Nitz
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Expressing the Future

Post by Paul-Nitz » May 7th, 2016, 5:15 am


How would you describe the differences between these expressions of the future?

  • (A) ἀκούσει, ἐλεύσεται, ποιηθήσεται, etc.
    • Mark 1:8 βαπτίσει ὑμᾶς ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.
      He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
    (B) γενήσεται
    • John 15:7 καὶ γενήσεται ὑμῖν.
      (If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish,) and it will be for you.
    (C) μέλλει + Present Infinitive
    • Revelation 2:10 μηδὲν φοβοῦ ἃ μέλλεις πάσχειν.
      Do not be afraid of what you will soon suffer.

      Matt. 17:12 οὕτως καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου μέλλει πάσχειν ὑπʼ αὐτῶν.
      In the same way, the son of man will suffer [must suffer] by their hand.
    (D) ἐσται + Participle
    • Matthew 16:19 ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς
      Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.

      Luke 17:35 ἔσονται δύο ἀλήθουσαι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό
      Two women will be grinding grain together
    (E) (F) (G) ???
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Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 7th, 2016, 11:48 pm

What's the intended difference between (A) and (B) except for lexeme? Voice?

Simple presents of telic eventualities can also have a future time reference (e.g., Mark 11:3 καὶ εὐθὺς αὐτὸν ἀποστέλλει πάλιν ὧδε).
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 8th, 2016, 7:51 am

Paul, not really precisely sure what you are asking. The future tense is the future tense, expressing that the action or state of being expressed takes place after the events expressed in the text at that point. μέλλει + the infinitive is often used of a more immediate or impending future, "is going to" or "is about to," although in some contexts in the NT it appears to be a periphrasis for the simple future. ἔσται + the perfect participle generally shows that the action in the future is viewed as completed. Of course, like anything else in any language, contextus rex, and context has to be examined to see precisely how the syntax is behaving.
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Paul-Nitz
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Paul-Nitz » May 8th, 2016, 9:47 am

I'm aiming at a simple English explanations of the options for my students. I was thinking along these lines:

THIS WILL HAPPEN/BE
(A) ἀκούσει, ἐλεύσεται, ποιηθήσεται, etc.

THIS WILL CERTAINLY BE
(B) γενήσεται

THIS IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN or THIS MUST HAPPEN
(C) μέλλει + Present Infinitive

THIS WILL BE THE STATE OF THINGS (?)
(D) ἐσται + Participle
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cwconrad
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by cwconrad » May 8th, 2016, 11:57 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:I'm aiming at a simple English explanations of the options for my students. I was thinking along these lines:

THIS WILL HAPPEN/BE
(A) ἀκούσει, ἐλεύσεται, ποιηθήσεται, etc.

THIS WILL CERTAINLY BE
(B) γενήσεται

THIS IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN or THIS MUST HAPPEN
(C) μέλλει + Present Infinitive

THIS WILL BE THE STATE OF THINGS (?)
(D) ἐσται + Participle
Paul, I'm going to jump in here and say what I think; those who disagree will certainly offer their views, but this might start a process of clarification.

I think that you are pushing a differentiation between these expressions overboard. I'm one who have been and continue to be skeptical of the proposition that "choice implies difference" -- at least insofar as that is meant to indicate that every alternative formulation of a notion must somehow involve significant differentiation. While I'd agree that a real choice between discerned differences is often enough made with an effort to be "crystal clear", I think that ordinary speech frequently tends to be lazy and not very careful about nuanced distinctions between "six of one" and "half a dozen of another." We might say, "I'm coming there tomorrow" or "I'll be there tomorrow" or "Count me in for the event at your place tomorrow." Is there some meaningful difference between these expressions? I think each of these will count as an a response to an RSVP invitaiton to an event scheduled for tomorrow at the sender's address.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Paul-Nitz
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Paul-Nitz » May 8th, 2016, 2:11 pm

:) INVITATION
  • χαῖρε Φίλε,
    • καλῶ σε. αὔριον τὰ γενέθλια μου ἔσται εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν οἰκίαν.
    ἔρρωσο,Σαῦλος
;) REPLIES?
  • 1) ναί, ἐλεύσομαι.
    2) ὡς θέλεις γενήσεται σοι.
    3) μέλλω ἔρχεσθαι.
    4) ἔσομαι ἐρχόμενος αὔριον.
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Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

cwconrad
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by cwconrad » May 9th, 2016, 8:41 am

Paul-Nitz wrote::) INVITATION
  • χαῖρε Φίλε,
    • καλῶ σε. αὔριον τὰ γενέθλια μου ἔσται εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν οἰκίαν.
    ἔρρωσο,Σαῦλος
;) REPLIES?
  • 1) ναί, ἐλεύσομαι.
    2) ὡς θέλεις γενήσεται σοι.
    3) μέλλω ἔρχεσθαι.
    4) ἔσομαι ἐρχόμενος αὔριον.
Okay,
#1 will do;
#2 seems a bit stiff and formal, as if "You asked for it; you've got it" or "So be it." It seems almost threatening ...
#3 will do -- something like "I intend to come" or "I'm going to come."
#4 is good English but not good Greek; far better Greek, I think, would be "ἔρχομαι αὔριον" or "μετά σου καὶ τῶν φίλων σου χαρήσομαι αὔριον."

So I guess there are some nuances; I don't see much difference in tone between #1 and #3; #2 seems stilted; #4 seems unidiomatic to me.

I'm reminded of a chapter in a little booklet -- a phrasebook -- on Bavarian (German) dialect about a phrase inviting the addressee to apply his lips to a prominent part of the speaker's body; four different word-orders and intonations of the same phrase had radically different implications ranging from mild bewilderment to pure indignation.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 9th, 2016, 8:49 am

I think that a subjunctive future is quite natural in the grammar of the unlearned if the subjunctive always or mostly refers to future time.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: Expressing the Future

Post by cwconrad » May 9th, 2016, 9:38 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:I think that a subjunctive future is quite natural in the grammar of the unlearned if the subjunctive always or mostly refers to future time.
I'm drawing a blank on this, except to think of the common Homeric usage of the subjunctive to express futurity. Seems to me the subjunctive in the 1st person is hortatory, in the 2nd person imperative. Of course there are the θέλω ἵνα phrases that look forward to the modern θά + subj. futures, but what NT Koine usages of subjunctive as future have you in mind, Stephen?
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 9th, 2016, 9:56 am

cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think that a subjunctive future is quite natural in the grammar of the unlearned if the subjunctive always or mostly refers to future time.
I'm drawing a blank on this, except to think of the common Homeric usage of the subjunctive to express futurity. Seems to me the subjunctive in the 1st person is hortatory, in the 2nd person imperative. Of course there are the θέλω ἵνα phrases that look forward to the modern θά + subj. futures, but what NT Koine usages of subjunctive as future have you in mind, Stephen?
Does any NT usage of the subjunctive refer to anything except the future either relative or absl
olute?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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