Expressing the Future

cwconrad
Posts: 2110
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by cwconrad » May 9th, 2016, 11:14 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think that a subjunctive future is quite natural in the grammar of the unlearned if the subjunctive always or mostly refers to future time.
I'm drawing a blank on this, except to think of the common Homeric usage of the subjunctive to express futurity. Seems to me the subjunctive in the 1st person is hortatory, in the 2nd person imperative. Of course there are the θέλω ἵνα phrases that look forward to the modern θά + subj. futures, but what NT Koine usages of subjunctive as future have you in mind, Stephen?
Does any NT usage of the subjunctive refer to anything except the future either relative or absl
olute?
I think we're probably talking about different things. Insofar as a subjunctive usage is used in hortatory, imperative direct expressions or in subordinate constructions with some form of ἵνα or ἂν, it will of course refer to an event that has not yet happened. On the other hand, Paul's question, unless I misunderstood it altogether, was about how we express what we intend to do in the future or what we expect to happen in the future. Perhaps the subject-header, "Expressing the Future", was intended more generally, but Paul's examples seemed limited to to statements about what one will do or what will happen.
0 x


οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 9th, 2016, 6:14 pm

Hortatory / imperative / infinitive of purpose etc. are all in a sense ways of talking about the things that haven't happened yet. There is what you think yourself and others should do, what you want others to be doing, what might happen as a consequence of something else.

"Expressing the Future" seemed like a broad topic, yes.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2835
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 9th, 2016, 10:44 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:I'm aiming at a simple English explanations of the options for my students. I was thinking along these lines:

THIS WILL HAPPEN/BE
(A) ἀκούσει, ἐλεύσεται, ποιηθήσεται, etc.

THIS WILL CERTAINLY BE
(B) γενήσεται
I still don't see any difference between (A) and (B). They are both morphological futures. I think the "certainly" in (B) is being smuggled from the context.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2835
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 9th, 2016, 10:45 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:"Expressing the Future" seemed like a broad topic, yes.
I'm not convinced it's helpful in this thread to equate irrealis with future, even if it can done by squinting hard enough.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 10th, 2016, 11:46 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:"Expressing the Future" seemed like a broad topic, yes.
I'm not convinced it's helpful in this thread to equate irrealis with future, even if it can done by squinting hard enough.
I'm not equating. Just saying that there are other ways to express one's thoughts about what will happen in the future. At a syntactic level, for example, if somebody is used to using two English futures together coordinated by an "and", they may better express the second verb in Greek by a subjunctive or an infinitive. Expressing the (English) future with a variety of expressions in Greek. The morphology for the future appear in about the same place in a verb as that for the mood.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
Posts: 2110
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by cwconrad » May 10th, 2016, 1:25 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:"Expressing the Future" seemed like a broad topic, yes.
I'm not convinced it's helpful in this thread to equate irrealis with future, even if it can done by squinting hard enough.
I'm not equating. Just saying that there are other ways to express one's thoughts about what will happen in the future. At a syntactic level, for example, if somebody is used to using two English futures together coordinated by an "and", they may better express the second verb in Greek by a subjunctive or an infinitive. Expressing the (English) future with a variety of expressions in Greek. The morphology for the future appear in about the same place in a verb as that for the mood.
More helpful than such generalities might be a few examples from Biblical Greek that would illustrate what you're hinting at.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 12th, 2016, 5:27 am

cwconrad wrote:More helpful than such generalities might be a few examples from Biblical Greek that would illustrate what you're hinting at.
:? Generalities and hints. :lol:

Well, I'm going to make some introductory remarks about tenses to make sense of the example, then an example. If somebody wanted to discuss the introductory remarks further they could copy them and and discuss them in another thread with a meaningful subject like, "Are there only two verbal systems in Greek".

I understand Greek to have two verbal systems; the first for narrative or description, and the second for dialogue. Of course, if you over-think on that, then logic leads to the conclusion that narrative is a form of dialogue. The ways of expressing the "future" relative to the "present" in either of those is different.

The next point is to define what the "present" is. In narrative, the present is the point in time that the story is up to, but in dialogue the naive or innate sense of the "present" as the time that the speaking takes place has credence. Now an example to see the way the future is expressed. Matthew 22:1-14.

1 Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς πάλιν εἶπεν (narrative present, it the point that the story is up to) αὐτοῖς ἐν παραβολαῖς, λέγων (dialogue begins), 2 Ὡμοιώθη (present tense in the dialogue) ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν ἀνθρώπῳ βασιλεῖ, ὅστις (narrative begins) ἐποίησεν (first verb in the narrative - present in narrative time) γάμους τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ· 3 καὶ ἀπέστειλεν (present in the narrative) τοὺς δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι (future in the narrative) τοὺς κεκλημένους (past or timeless in the narrative) εἰς τοὺς γάμους, καὶ οὐκ ἤθελον (present in the narrative) ἐλθεῖν (future in the narrative). 4 Πάλιν ἀπέστειλεν (present in the narrative) ἄλλους δούλους, λέγων (dialogue begins), Εἴπατε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) τοῖς κεκλημένοις (past or without time significance in the dialogue). Ἰδού (beginning of narrative), τὸ ἄριστόν μου ἡτοίμασα (present in a narrative) (NA-UBS ἡτοίμακα - past or timeless in a dialogue), οἱ ταῦροί μου καὶ τὰ σιτιστὰ τεθυμένα (past or timeless in a dialogue), καὶ πάντα ἕτοιμα· δεῦτε (future in a dialogue) εἰς τοὺς γάμους. 5 Οἱ δὲ ἀμελήσαντες ἀπῆλθον (present in the narrative), ὁ μὲν εἰς τὸν ἴδιον ἀγρόν, ὁ δὲ εἰς τὴν ἐμπορίαν αὐτοῦ· 6 οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ κρατήσαντες τοὺς δούλους αὐτοῦ ὕβρισαν (present in the narrative) καὶ ἀπέκτειναν (present in the narrative). 7 Καὶ ἀκούσας ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐκεῖνος ὠργίσθη (present in the narrative), καὶ πέμψας τὰ στρατεύματα αὐτοῦ ἀπώλεσεν (present in the narrative) τοὺς φονεῖς ἐκείνους, καὶ τὴν πόλιν αὐτῶν ἐνέπρησεν (present in the narrative). 8 Τότε λέγει τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ, Ὁ μὲν γάμος ἕτοιμός ἐστιν, οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι (past or without time-reference in the dialogue) οὐκ ἦσαν (past in the dialogue) ἄξιοι. 9 Πορεύεσθε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) οὖν ἐπὶ τὰς διεξόδους τῶν ὁδῶν, καὶ ὅσους ἂν εὕρητε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time), καλέσατε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) εἰς τοὺς γάμους. 10 Καὶ ἐξελθόντες οἱ δοῦλοι ἐκεῖνοι εἰς τὰς ὁδοὺς συνήγαγον (present in narrative time) πάντας ὅσους εὗρον (present in narrative time), πονηρούς τε καὶ ἀγαθούς· καὶ ἐπλήσθη (present in narrative time) ὁ γάμος ἀνακειμένων. 11 Εἰσελθὼν δὲ ὁ βασιλεὺς θεάσασθαι (an action that happened after Εἰσέρχεσθαι) τοὺς ἀνακειμένους εἶδεν (present in narrative time) ἐκεῖ ἄνθρωπον οὐκ ἐνδεδυμένον past or without time reference in the narrative) ἔνδυμα γάμου· 12 καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ, Ἑταῖρε, πῶς εἰσῆλθες (past in dialogue time) ὧδε μὴ ἔχων ἔνδυμα γάμου; Ὁ δὲ ἐφιμώθη (present in narrative time).13 Τότε εἶπεν (present in narrative time) ὁ βασιλεὺς τοῖς διακόνοις, Δήσαντες αὐτοῦ πόδας καὶ χεῖρας, ἄρατε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) αὐτὸν καὶ ἐκβάλετε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον· ἐκεῖ ἔσται (a state that will exist without relative reference to other time referencing points) ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων. 14 Πολλοὶ γάρ εἰσιν κλητοί, ὀλίγοι δὲ ἐκλεκτοί (a statement λόγιον without time reference).
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
Posts: 2110
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by cwconrad » May 13th, 2016, 7:26 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
cwconrad wrote:More helpful than such generalities might be a few examples from Biblical Greek that would illustrate what you're hinting at.
:? Generalities and hints. :lol:

Well, I'm going to make some introductory remarks about tenses to make sense of the example, then an example. If somebody wanted to discuss the introductory remarks further they could copy them and and discuss them in another thread with a meaningful subject like, "Are there only two verbal systems in Greek".

I understand Greek to have two verbal systems; the first for narrative or description, and the second for dialogue. Of course, if you over-think on that, then logic leads to the conclusion that narrative is a form of dialogue. The ways of expressing the "future" relative to the "present" in either of those is different.

The next point is to define what the "present" is. In narrative, the present is the point in time that the story is up to, but in dialogue the naive or innate sense of the "present" as the time that the speaking takes place has credence. Now an example to see the way the future is expressed. Matthew 22:1-14.

1 Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς πάλιν εἶπεν (narrative present, it the point that the story is up to) αὐτοῖς ἐν παραβολαῖς, λέγων (dialogue begins), 2 Ὡμοιώθη (present tense in the dialogue) ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν ἀνθρώπῳ βασιλεῖ, ὅστις (narrative begins) ἐποίησεν (first verb in the narrative - present in narrative time) γάμους τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ· 3 καὶ ἀπέστειλεν (present in the narrative) τοὺς δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι (future in the narrative) τοὺς κεκλημένους (past or timeless in the narrative) εἰς τοὺς γάμους, καὶ οὐκ ἤθελον (present in the narrative) ἐλθεῖν (future in the narrative). 4 Πάλιν ἀπέστειλεν (present in the narrative) ἄλλους δούλους, λέγων (dialogue begins), Εἴπατε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) τοῖς κεκλημένοις (past or without time significance in the dialogue). Ἰδού (beginning of narrative), τὸ ἄριστόν μου ἡτοίμασα (present in a narrative) (NA-UBS ἡτοίμακα - past or timeless in a dialogue), οἱ ταῦροί μου καὶ τὰ σιτιστὰ τεθυμένα (past or timeless in a dialogue), καὶ πάντα ἕτοιμα· δεῦτε (future in a dialogue) εἰς τοὺς γάμους. 5 Οἱ δὲ ἀμελήσαντες ἀπῆλθον (present in the narrative), ὁ μὲν εἰς τὸν ἴδιον ἀγρόν, ὁ δὲ εἰς τὴν ἐμπορίαν αὐτοῦ· 6 οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ κρατήσαντες τοὺς δούλους αὐτοῦ ὕβρισαν (present in the narrative) καὶ ἀπέκτειναν (present in the narrative). 7 Καὶ ἀκούσας ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐκεῖνος ὠργίσθη (present in the narrative), καὶ πέμψας τὰ στρατεύματα αὐτοῦ ἀπώλεσεν (present in the narrative) τοὺς φονεῖς ἐκείνους, καὶ τὴν πόλιν αὐτῶν ἐνέπρησεν (present in the narrative). 8 Τότε λέγει τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ, Ὁ μὲν γάμος ἕτοιμός ἐστιν, οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι (past or without time-reference in the dialogue) οὐκ ἦσαν (past in the dialogue) ἄξιοι. 9 Πορεύεσθε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) οὖν ἐπὶ τὰς διεξόδους τῶν ὁδῶν, καὶ ὅσους ἂν εὕρητε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time), καλέσατε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) εἰς τοὺς γάμους. 10 Καὶ ἐξελθόντες οἱ δοῦλοι ἐκεῖνοι εἰς τὰς ὁδοὺς συνήγαγον (present in narrative time) πάντας ὅσους εὗρον (present in narrative time), πονηρούς τε καὶ ἀγαθούς· καὶ ἐπλήσθη (present in narrative time) ὁ γάμος ἀνακειμένων. 11 Εἰσελθὼν δὲ ὁ βασιλεὺς θεάσασθαι (an action that happened after Εἰσέρχεσθαι) τοὺς ἀνακειμένους εἶδεν (present in narrative time) ἐκεῖ ἄνθρωπον οὐκ ἐνδεδυμένον past or without time reference in the narrative) ἔνδυμα γάμου· 12 καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ, Ἑταῖρε, πῶς εἰσῆλθες (past in dialogue time) ὧδε μὴ ἔχων ἔνδυμα γάμου; Ὁ δὲ ἐφιμώθη (present in narrative time).13 Τότε εἶπεν (present in narrative time) ὁ βασιλεὺς τοῖς διακόνοις, Δήσαντες αὐτοῦ πόδας καὶ χεῖρας, ἄρατε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) αὐτὸν καὶ ἐκβάλετε (an action that will happen in the future in dialogue time) εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον· ἐκεῖ ἔσται (a state that will exist without relative reference to other time referencing points) ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων. 14 Πολλοὶ γάρ εἰσιν κλητοί, ὀλίγοι δὲ ἐκλεκτοί (a statement λόγιον without time reference).
I found this very interesting, in more ways than one. While I don't think it has anything at all to do with Paul's original question, it does clarify what did seem to me some rather enigmatic assertions about "expressing the future." This analysis of the temporal relationships is rather intriguing; on the other hand, it reinforces my sense that it's far easier to understand what the original text itself is saying than it is to understand an analysis of it; that is to say, well-formulated written text communicates clearly to a reader, while metalinguistic analytic description of it tends to be opaque. I've always thought that's why language pedagogy that depends on teaching grammar is not very effective.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Expressing the Future

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 14th, 2016, 6:50 am

cwconrad wrote:it reinforces my sense that it's far easier to understand what the original text itself is saying than it is to understand an analysis of it; that is to say, well-formulated written text communicates clearly to a reader, while metalinguistic analytic description of it tends to be opaque.
Perhaps instead of claiming there were two and then mentioning the two, plus the non time referent final sentence, I should have stated openly that I think γάρ in this (introducing quotation or idea) usage suspends habeas corpus, leaving the verbs after it without their rights under grammatical law to freely express a tense, regardless of what rights and freedoms they may have had in their original context before they were carried off as a quote. :lol: :lol: :lol: But then again that might not hae been to only factor contributing to opacity. :cry:
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Post Reply

Return to “Syntax and Grammar”