δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Stirling Bartholomew
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Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » June 15th, 2016, 11:52 am

Would anyone like to comment on the colored portion of the text?
CYRILLUS Alexandrinus De adoratione et cultu in spiritu et veritate
Volume 68, page 953, line 24

{ΠΑΛΛ.} Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
{ΚΥΡ.} Οὐκοῦν ἀπόβλητον μὲν τὸ ἄναλκι, καὶ τὸ
οἱονεὶ παρειμένον, δεκτὸν δὲ τὸ εὐσθενὲς, ὡς ἐν
ἀρσένων φύσει ζωγραφούμενον, εἰ παρεζευγμένον
ἔχοι τὸ ἄμωμον. Εἶεν δι' ἂν εἰς τύπον ἡμῖν σαφῆ τὰ
τοιάδε Χριστοῦ. Ἄρσην γὰρ ὁμοῦ καὶ ἄμωμος ὁ
Ἐμμανουὴλ, εἴπερ ἐστὶν ἀληθῶς Θεοῦ δύναμις, καὶ
οὐκ εἰδὼς ἁμαρτίαν. Ἄρσην δὲ καὶ ἑτέρως· προὖ-
χον γὰρ ἀεὶ, καὶ ἐν ἀμείνοσι θατέρου τὸ ἄρσεν· καὶ
πρός γε δὴ τούτῳ καὶ ἡγεμονικώτατον. Προέστηκε


CYRILLUS Alexandrinus Commentarius in Isaiam prophetam
Volume 70, page 344, line 10

συνέχειν αὐτοὺς ἰσχύοντος πρὸς εὐσέβειαν. «Οὐ γὰρ
ἐπ' ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται,» φησὶν, «ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλ'
ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ διὰ στόματος Θεοῦ.»
Ὕδωρ μὲν οὖν ἀποκαλεῖ τὸν ζωοποιὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ, λόγον·
πηγὰς δὲ τοὺς ἁγίους ἀποστόλους τε καὶ εὐαγγελι-
στὰς, προσθείην δι' ἂν ὅτι καὶ αὐτοὺς τοὺς προφή-
τας· Σωτήριον δὲ τὸν Χριστόν.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 16th, 2016, 1:08 am

δ'
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
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Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by cwconrad » June 16th, 2016, 5:58 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:Would anyone like to comment on the colored portion of the text?
CYRILLUS Alexandrinus De adoratione et cultu in spiritu et veritate
Volume 68, page 953, line 24

{ΠΑΛΛ.} Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
{ΚΥΡ.} Οὐκοῦν ἀπόβλητον μὲν τὸ ἄναλκι, καὶ τὸ
οἱονεὶ παρειμένον, δεκτὸν δὲ τὸ εὐσθενὲς, ὡς ἐν
ἀρσένων φύσει ζωγραφούμενον, εἰ παρεζευγμένον
ἔχοι τὸ ἄμωμον. Εἶεν δι' ἂν εἰς τύπον ἡμῖν σαφῆ τὰ
τοιάδε Χριστοῦ. Ἄρσην γὰρ ὁμοῦ καὶ ἄμωμος ὁ
Ἐμμανουὴλ, εἴπερ ἐστὶν ἀληθῶς Θεοῦ δύναμις, καὶ
οὐκ εἰδὼς ἁμαρτίαν. Ἄρσην δὲ καὶ ἑτέρως· προὖ-
χον γὰρ ἀεὶ, καὶ ἐν ἀμείνοσι θατέρου τὸ ἄρσεν· καὶ
πρός γε δὴ τούτῳ καὶ ἡγεμονικώτατον. Προέστηκε


CYRILLUS Alexandrinus Commentarius in Isaiam prophetam
Volume 70, page 344, line 10

συνέχειν αὐτοὺς ἰσχύοντος πρὸς εὐσέβειαν. «Οὐ γὰρ
ἐπ' ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται,» φησὶν, «ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλ'
ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ διὰ στόματος Θεοῦ.»
Ὕδωρ μὲν οὖν ἀποκαλεῖ τὸν ζωοποιὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ, λόγον·
πηγὰς δὲ τοὺς ἁγίους ἀποστόλους τε καὶ εὐαγγελι-
στὰς, προσθείην δι' ἂν ὅτι καὶ αὐτοὺς τοὺς προφή-
τας· Σωτήριον δὲ τὸν Χριστόν.
In both instances the ἂν pretty clearly construes with an optative in the conventional potential-optative construction. The question is what a διὰ is doing with it, where there's no noun on hand in any of the cases with which this preposition construes. Is it conceivable that the δι’ is a misspelled δή? SH has suggested δ’ — I cannot tell from his enigmatic note whether this was intended to be a correction of the Cyril citations or a suggestion as to an alternative. I had thought that δη and δι might be homophones.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 16th, 2016, 7:38 am

I posted that without affectation. It seems to be the easiest solution, and there is a need for conjunctives within the context of the paragraph as a whole.

I think that is the easiest way to read it without thinking too much - in our modern punctuated texts wherein the comma gas replaced the role of the δέ that amounts to ignoring it.

Δέ takes second place, so suits the position.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 931
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » June 16th, 2016, 12:28 pm

I checked the pages in MPG (Migne Patrologia Graeca) which were digitized for TLG. The second one is a digitization error, MPG reads: προσθείην δ' ἂν ὅτι καὶ αὐὶ αὐ. The first sample appears to follow MPG. Not sure about the breathing mark for ἂν.

This all got started when someone posted a question about:

John 4:14 ὃς δ᾿ ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ NA27
You will find a lot of Greek Sources on the web with:

John 4:14 ὃς δι’ ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ



postscript: having a ton of greif with this site. Can't edit posts, get logged off. No cookies being placed. I have no problems with the same system used for TEXTKIT.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 931
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » June 16th, 2016, 1:14 pm

Correction Migne Reads:

προσθείην δ' ἂν ὅτι καὶ αὐτοὺς τοὺς προφή-
τας· Σωτήριον δὲ τὸν Χριστόν

the online editor is scrambling letters.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stephen Carlson
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Location: Melbourne
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Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 16th, 2016, 7:24 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:I checked the pages in MPG (Migne Patrologia Graeca) which were digitized for TLG. The second one is a digitization error, MPG reads: προσθείην δ' ἂν ὅτι καὶ αὐὶ αὐ. The first sample appears to follow MPG. Not sure about the breathing mark for ἂν.
Given the nature of Migne, a typo at this stage cannot be ruled out. One needs to consult either a more recent critical edition or the underlying manuscript(s).
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stirling Bartholomew
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Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » June 18th, 2016, 11:53 am

cwconrad wrote: The question is what a διὰ is doing with it, where there's no noun on hand in any of the cases with which this preposition construes.
Carl,

When the question came up, it seemed to me that particle ἂν following a preposition was inherently improbable. ἂν follows conjunctions and other particles. I haven't found any examples of ἂν following a word that functions as a preposition. Is that even possible?
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

George F Somsel
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Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by George F Somsel » June 18th, 2016, 12:30 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:Correction Migne Reads:

προσθείην δ' ἂν ὅτι καὶ αὐτοὺς τοὺς προφή-
τας· Σωτήριον δὲ τὸν Χριστόν

the online editor is scrambling letters.
When I did some work for Logos on the DSS I had that problem with Hebrew, but that was with an older version of Word; I've never seen that happen with Greek before.
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george
gfsomsel



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learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



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Stirling Bartholomew
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Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: δι' ἂν in Cyril of Alex.

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » June 18th, 2016, 12:50 pm

George F Somsel wrote:
Stirling Bartholomew wrote:Correction Migne Reads:

προσθείην δ' ἂν ὅτι καὶ αὐτοὺς τοὺς προφή-
τας· Σωτήριον δὲ τὸν Χριστόν

the online editor is scrambling letters.
When I did some work for Logos on the DSS I had that problem with Hebrew, but that was with an older version of Word; I've never seen that happen with Greek before.
George,

I think is a Safari thing. FIreFox doesn't do it.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

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