Mt. 20:31 ἵνα with expectation?

Post Reply
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Mt. 20:31 ἵνα with expectation?

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 21st, 2016, 2:17 am

Matthew 20:31 wrote:Ὁ δὲ ὄχλος ἐπετίμησεν αὐτοῖς ἵνα σιωπήσωσιν. Οἱ δὲ μεῖζον ἔκραζον (ἔκραξαν in the NA-UBS text), λέγοντες, Ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς, κύριε, υἱὸς Δαυίδ.
In this example, the crowd expected that their rebukes would shut them up - expressed with an aorist active subjunctive, and then their expectation is contrasted with their further crying out.

Is there something in the Greek that actually expresses their expectation - perhaps the voice or aspect of σιωπήσωσιν - or is it just left up to context?
Mark 3:9 wrote:Καὶ εἶπεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ ἵνα πλοιάριον προσκαρτερῇ αὐτῷ διὰ τὸν ὄχλον, ἵνα μὴ θλίβωσιν αὐτόν.
Here our Lord says that they should keep a boat handy, because there was a possibility that the crowd might press on him. It seems that it is not expected, but it is still possible. This is a present active subjunctive.
Luke 6:34 wrote:Καὶ γὰρ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἁμαρτωλοῖς δανείζουσιν, ἵνα ἀπολάβωσιν τὰ ἴσα.
Here the aorist active after the ἵνα is used for something that is expected.
John 6:28 wrote:Εἶπον οὖν πρὸς αὐτόν, Τί ποιῶμεν, ἵνα ἐργαζώμεθα τὰ ἔργα τοῦ θεοῦ;
Here they have no idea, and it is in the present.

Is there really a pattern in this?
0 x


Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
Posts: 2110
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Mt. 20:31 ἵνα with expectation?

Post by cwconrad » June 21st, 2016, 10:37 am

I think that Margaret Sims' work is relevant to these questions: Marking thought and talk in New Testament Greek: new light from linguistics on the particles ἵνα and ὅτι: http://www.sil.org/resources/publications/entry/40558. This has been discussed in this forum a year or two back, I think.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Mt. 20:31 ἵνα with expectation?

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 21st, 2016, 11:46 am

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 701&p=2784

It was mentioned in 2011. Before my time.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
Posts: 2110
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Mt. 20:31 ἵνα with expectation?

Post by cwconrad » June 21st, 2016, 12:49 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 701&p=2784

It was mentioned in 2011. Before my time.
You're right -- time does fly like an arrow. 2011 seems like yesterday. But it's not too late to look at Margaret Sim's work.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2825
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Mt. 20:31 ἵνα with expectation?

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 21st, 2016, 8:08 pm

ἴνα classically expresses purpose,* and purpose is basically expected result. It's unclear to me why the question seems to focus on expectation as if it is separate from purpose.

(I too recommend Sim's work.)

* Of course, in Koine ἵνα has generalized to broader functions, including result.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Mt. 20:31 ἵνα with expectation?

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 22nd, 2016, 4:07 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:It's unclear to me why the question seems to focus on expectation as if it is separate from purpose.
"Just in case", might be how we'd make a division between those two in English. I wonder if that distinction in thought is expressed in Greek grammar.

"I've brought eighty yuan along to buy groceries" has a lot closer correlation between purpose and expectation than, "I'll carry a note pad to jot down any clever thoughts that I have." To use Mike's terminology, the correlation between purpose and expectation is scalar. In the Greek examples that I quoted at the head of this thread it seems that the aorist is used when, in the opinion of the speaker or writer, the correlation is stronger and the present is used when the expectation could be weaker.

To start at the other (uncertain) end of the scale, the title of the thread could have been, "Mt. 20:31Just how much uncertainty is there in the ἵνα clause?" It would seem that there is more expected uncertainty in a ἵνα clause of purpose when it is in the present, as opposed to the aorist.

The effect, if the pattern were true, is that the standard technique for translation / understanding that most students employ in handling the ἵνα + subjunctive of purpose ("in order that they might do something") involves an overtranslation of the (generally taught) uncertainty of the subjunctive when it is in the aorist, but that understanding of uncertainty may still be valid when the subjunctive is present.
cwconrad wrote:I think that Margaret Sims' work is relevant to these questions: Marking thought and talk in New Testament Greek: new light from linguistics on the particles ἵνα and ὅτι
Stephen Carlson wrote:(I too recommend Sim's work.)
I couldn't find a positive "yes there is a pattern" answer by skimming, which would be the easiest case senario, so plodding through it will take a while.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Post Reply

Return to “Syntax and Grammar”