Voice and valence - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

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Stephen Hughes
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Voice and valence - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 14th, 2016, 1:57 pm

Κατακλίνειν seems to be a detail level verb (what I've alternatively called "concrete" or "close context"), which describes the momentary action of changing from the state (long-term action) of standing etc. to the state or long-term action of reclining. Actually, it follows a simple usage patterns, alternating between:
  • The unmarked voice with the accusative - κατεκλίνεν τίνα with a valance of 2, meaning "(s)he lay sb. down" / "she caused sb. to recline".
  • The subject-affected voice - ἀνεκλίθη with a valance of 1, meaning "(s)he sat down".
That change in valence and voice is seemingly similar to the English passive voice construction.

The BDAG entry, if you are comparing it, is delineated by what is caused to happen - lying or sitting. Presumably, the emphasis on the word "caused" is to accommodate the way that the meaning is constructed in the English idiom. That is to say that in English, we are quite happy to say, "She sat them down.", but we don't say, "She reclined them*."

I think that in Greek, it is what we see it here as - a strong (non-deleting) valence 2 (second element in the accusative) verb in the unmarked voice, and a valence 1 verb in the subject-affected voice. Besides the voice - valence interplay that this thread is asking about, his verb also requires a prepositional phrase indicating location, situation or whatever other condition that they were to recline in. Such a phrase is weak (subject to deletion, if it is clear from context).

I understand that valence is broadly defined category, but have I correctly counted the numbers. Should I be saying that the obligatory prepositional phrase is also a valence element? Am I right in identifying the similarity between this and the common English construction?
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MAubrey
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Re: Voice and valance - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by MAubrey » August 14th, 2016, 3:02 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:I understand that valance is broadly defined category, but have I correctly counted the numbers. Should I be saying that the obligatory prepositional phrase is also a valance element? Am I right in identifying the similarity between this and the common English construction?
This construction is a causative/anti-causative alternation. The English passive isn't. So while there's a similarity in the quantity of arguments, that's where it stops. The majority of Greek verbs that alternate between active and middle are causative/anti-causative alternations.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Voice and valance - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 15th, 2016, 2:26 am

Well, that's boringly simple!

For almost 35 years, I've been trying to align that part of Greek with the wrong part of English. :roll: Well that's the way it goes. :lol: I mean re-orientations are good. I remember when I realised that the case system in Greek of the Koine period aligns with the schema of the system of countable and uncountable nouns in English, rather than with few fossilised forms like "him", cases started making real sense. Now this is another thing to work through.

It does make sense that English - being a language without conjugations, relying on word order - may not have this marked either; "The crowd sat down." vs "They sat the crowd down", (marked by word order), doesn't need to be marked like Greek, "The crowd sat-*subtract-one-from-valence* down".

So would that mean in effect that οὐδεὶς ἐπίασεν αὐτόν, (John 8:20), and ἐπιάσθη τὸ θηρίον (Revelations 19:20) differ in valence, and that is indicated morphologically by voice?
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Voice and valance - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by Barry Hofstetter » August 15th, 2016, 9:51 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Well, that's boringly simple!

For almost 35 years, I've been trying to allign that part of Greek with the wrong part of English. :roll: Well that's the way it goes. :lol: I mean re-orientations are good. I remember when I realised that the case system in Greek of the Koine period alligns with theschema of the system of countable and uncountable nouns in English, rather than with few fossilised forms like "him", cases started making real sense. Now this is another thing to work through.

It does make sense that English - being a language without conjugations, relying on word order - may not have this marked either; "The crowd sat down." vs "They sat the crowd down", (marked by word order), doesn't need to be marked like Greek, "The crowd sat-*subtract-one-from-valance* down".

So would that mean in effect that οὐδεὶς ἐπίασεν αὐτόν, (John 8:20), and ἐπιάσθη τὸ θηρίον (Revelations 19:20) differ in valance, and that is indicated morphologically by voice?
It really doesn't matter how you get it as long as you get it. Yes, there are two arguments in the first example and one in the second, and it's morphologically marked in the verb.
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Re: Voice and valance - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by MAubrey » August 15th, 2016, 9:00 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:So would that mean in effect that οὐδεὶς ἐπίασεν αὐτόν, (John 8:20), and ἐπιάσθη τὸ θηρίον (Revelations 19:20) differ in valance, and that is indicated morphologically by voice?
Yeah. I'd say so.

Πιάζω is a better instance of the canonical passive type. If you were to think of it Greek voice and English voice in terms of venn diagrams, there'd be an overlap between them for verbs like this one.
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Re: Voice and valance - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 15th, 2016, 11:48 pm

MAubrey wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:So would that mean in effect that οὐδεὶς ἐπίασεν αὐτόν, (John 8:20), and ἐπιάσθη τὸ θηρίον (Revelations 19:20) differ in valance, and that is indicated morphologically by voice?
Yeah. I'd say so.

Πιάζω is a better instance of the canonical passive type. If you were to think of it Greek voice and English voice in terms of venn diagrams, there'd be an overlap between them for verbs like this one.
I understand wbat you're saying - Greek understood as Greek, and English as English it might be okay to make a "literal translation" - a translation according to the grammatical and lexical understanding of a first step off the starting-block beginner - using what is called the English passive, for what is called the Greek passive.

Mike, I have an inquiring disposition towards the canonicity of the passive in English (you might say that I'm skeptical about it). There are some things that adult second language learners of English do not master well, and the "get" passives are an example of this. ἐπιάσθη τὸ θηρίον as "came to be in a state of caughted-ness" might also be understood in English as "got nabbed (caught)" (came to be in a state of caughtedness, not "were captured and then released") not only "was caught" (short time reference without thinking about being held).

Even though, πιάζω is short time and detailed, I think that ἐ-<verb>-θη can make a verb have long-time reference in a narrative text. How do you think of narrative function of ἐ-<verb>-θη verbs?
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Voice and valance - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 15th, 2016, 11:55 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:It really doesn't matter how you get it as long as you get it. Yes, there are two arguments in the first example and one in the second, and it's morphologically marked in the verb.
If I had used the vocabulary for that frame of reference, I would have only made one (non-misleading) spelling mistake - "arguements", but as it is, this thread, "voice and valance" is about both linguistics and drapery. Mosspelling lyke this iz a teksbook-stile ixample of search engine de-optimisation.
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Re: Voice and valance - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by Stephen Carlson » August 16th, 2016, 3:19 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:It really doesn't matter how you get it as long as you get it. Yes, there are two arguments in the first example and one in the second, and it's morphologically marked in the verb.
If I had used the vocabulary for that frame of reference, I would have only made one (non-misleading) spelling mistake - "arguements", but as it is, this thread, "voice and valance" is about both linguistics and drapery. Mosspelling lyke this iz a teksbook-stile ixample of search engine de-optimisation.
Hopefully, some elf has gone through and fixed most of them.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Voice and valence - the pattern of κατακλίνειν's use.

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 16th, 2016, 4:53 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:Hopefully, some elf has gone through and fixed most of them.
Thanks for covering my six.

Ha ha. My beard has almost completely turned the right colour, but it's not long and fluffy. Besides, I usually wear a black motor sports team cap, not a red hood. 8-)
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