infintive in Plutarch

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Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 946
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

infintive in Plutarch

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 10th, 2016, 3:28 pm


Plutarchus Marcellus
Ch 3, sec2

θαυμαστὸν μὲν ἐδόκει καὶ
τύχης ἀγαθῆς γενέσθαι τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι τὸν Κελτικὸν
εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ τῷ Λιβυκῷ πόλεμον, ἀλλ' ὥσπερ ἐφεδρείαν
εἰληφότας τοὺς Γαλάτας, ὀρθῶς καὶ δικαίως ἀτρεμήσαντας
μαχομένων ἐκείνων, οὕτω δὴ τότε τοῖς νενικηκόσιν ἐπ-
αποδύεσθαι καὶ προκαλεῖσθαι σχολὴν ἄγοντας· οὐ μὴν
ἀλλὰ μέγαν ἥ τε χώρα παρεῖχε <φόβον> διὰ τὴν γειτνίασιν,
ὁμόρῳ καὶ προσοίκῳ πολέμῳ συνοισομένοις, καὶ τὸ πα-
λαιὸν ἀξίωμα τῶν Γαλατῶν· οὓς μάλιστα Ῥωμαῖοι δεῖσαι

It seemed a marvellous piece of good fortune that the Gallic war did not break out while the Punic war was raging, but that the Gauls, like a third champion sitting by and awaiting his turn with the victor, remained strictly quiet while the other two nations were fighting, and then only stripped for combat when the victors were at liberty to receive their challenge. Nevertheless, the Romans were greatly alarmed by the proximity of their country to the enemy, with whom they would wage war so near their own boundaries and homes, as well as by the ancient renown of the Gauls, whom the Romans seem to have feared more than any other people. For Rome had once been taken by them,

Bernadotte Perrin, 1917


τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι starts an infinitive construction, where does it end?
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: infintive in Plutarch

Post by Wes Wood » September 10th, 2016, 6:02 pm

τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι starts an infinitive construction, where does it end?
This will probably be a rather sorry answer, but I will give it a shot. Here is my attempt to translate the relevant portion of the passage:
On the one hand it seems to be marvelous and of good fortune that the Celts did not join the battle during the same war with the Libyans, but [it was] as though the Gauls were sitting around after overtaking a foe, waiting rightly and justly while those [other nations] were fighting--in this same manner [the Gauls joined the battle] after one of the nations had prevailed to strip and set upon and to challenge them while they were enjoying a break.
Basically, I see a negative infinitive construction τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι τὸν Κελτικὸν εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ τῷ Λιβυκῷ πόλεμον that is resolved much later by an implied positive infinitive using the same verb συρραγῆναι. Rearranged in English I would say: The Celts did not enter the war while the Libyans were fighting with them [some other third party, Romans?]; instead they joined the battle after the war was over as though they were waiting their turn. As I read it, the section in the middle hinges upon an implied 'be' verb. However, I'm not sure that I have expressed my thoughts well.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 946
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: infintive in Plutarch

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 11th, 2016, 10:36 am

Wes Wood wrote:
τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι starts an infinitive construction, where does it end?
This will probably be a rather sorry answer, but I will give it a shot. Here is my attempt to translate the relevant portion of the passage:
On the one hand it seems to be marvelous and of good fortune that the Celts did not join the battle during the same war with the Libyans, but [it was] as though the Gauls were sitting around after overtaking a foe, waiting rightly and justly while those [other nations] were fighting--in this same manner [the Gauls joined the battle] after one of the nations had prevailed to strip and set upon and to challenge them while they were enjoying a break.
Basically, I see a negative infinitive construction τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι τὸν Κελτικὸν εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ τῷ Λιβυκῷ πόλεμον that is resolved much later by an implied positive infinitive using the same verb συρραγῆναι. Rearranged in English I would say: The Celts did not enter the war while the Libyans were fighting with them [some other third party, Romans?]; instead they joined the battle after the war was over as though they were waiting their turn. As I read it, the section in the middle hinges upon an implied 'be' verb. However, I'm not sure that I have expressed my thoughts well.


Wes,
Thanks from responding. I am wondering if there is anyone on the forum who would extend the "infinitive construction" τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι τὸν Κελτικὸν beyond πόλεμον? I saw in another forum two "philologists" state authoritatively that the "infinitive construction" ended with ἄγοντας. That didn 't make any sense. So I am assuming that there is some framework where the meta-language "infinitive construction" means something different.


θαυμαστὸν μὲν ἐδόκει καὶ
τύχης ἀγαθῆς γενέσθαι τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι τὸν Κελτικὸν
εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ τῷ Λιβυκῷ πόλεμον, ἀλλ' ὥσπερ ἐφεδρείαν
εἰληφότας τοὺς Γαλάτας, ὀρθῶς καὶ δικαίως ἀτρεμήσαντας
μαχομένων ἐκείνων, οὕτω δὴ τότε τοῖς νενικηκόσιν ἐπ-
αποδύεσθαι καὶ προκαλεῖσθαι σχολὴν ἄγοντας·
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Robert Emil Berge
Posts: 63
Joined: August 24th, 2016, 1:34 pm

Re: infintive in Plutarch

Post by Robert Emil Berge » September 12th, 2016, 3:06 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: Wes,
Thanks from responding. I am wondering if there is anyone on the forum who would extend the "infinitive construction" τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι τὸν Κελτικὸν beyond πόλεμον? I saw in another forum two "philologists" state authoritatively that the "infinitive construction" ended with ἄγοντας. That didn 't make any sense. So I am assuming that there is some framework where the meta-language "infinitive construction" means something different.
To me it seems natural to include all the infinitives coming in a row with the τό, since it both makes best sense that all of this takes part in what is "marvelous and of good fortune", and it is a very normal sentence construction. Then the first μέν is answerd with the ἀλλά after οὐ μήν.
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Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 946
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: infintive in Plutarch

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 12th, 2016, 1:09 pm

Robert,

Thank you for responding. If I understand you correctly, we are looking at several infinitives introduced by γενέσθαι τὸ spread out with conjunctions and several participles in between. That notion is certainly understandable but wasn't how I was reading the question. As I understood it, the question was how far does the τὸ μὴ συρραγῆναι construction extend. In other words, what are the boundaries of the first infinitive clause. But I see that your reading is probably correct.



Plutarchus Marcellus
Ch 3, sec2

θαυμαστὸν μὲν ἐδόκει καὶ
τύχης ἀγαθῆς γενέσθαι τὸν Κελτικὸν
εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ τῷ Λιβυκῷ πόλεμον, ἀλλ' ὥσπερ ἐφεδρείαν
εἰληφότας τοὺς Γαλάτας, ὀρθῶς καὶ δικαίως ἀτρεμήσαντας
μαχομένων ἐκείνων, οὕτω δὴ τότε τοῖς νενικηκόσιν ἐπ-
αποδύεσθαι καὶ προκαλεῖσθαι σχολὴν ἄγοντας· οὐ μὴν
ἀλλὰ μέγαν ἥ τε χώρα παρεῖχε <φόβον> διὰ τὴν γειτνίασιν,
ὁμόρῳ καὶ προσοίκῳ πολέμῳ συνοισομένοις, καὶ τὸ πα-
λαιὸν ἀξίωμα τῶν Γαλατῶν· οὓς μάλιστα Ῥωμαῖοι δεῖσαι
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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