Possible or plausible?

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Alan Bunning
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Possible or plausible?

Post by Alan Bunning » January 8th, 2017, 12:29 pm

I went back to words that otherwise might be considered spelling mistakes and then ran them through Perseus to see if they could be real words. So I am trying to see if any of these could be made to work as variant readings rather than just spelling mistakes:

Matt. 2:16 GA-032 γαμων (γάμος) ...mocked by the weddings (who got married?)
Matt. 28:3 GA-03 ειδε (εἶδον) And it was where he saw him as lightening??
Mark 7:8 GA-05 τολην can this word stand alone without the εν?
Mark 9:28 GA-05 ιαν (ἰά/εἷς) questioned him with voices/as one??
Mark 14:3 GA-05 γυγη (γύγης) ...[there] came to a bird having an alabaster vial?? (case problem?)
Luke 21:12 GA-03 επιβαλεισ (ἐπιβάλλω) . You will throw yourself before governors...
Luke 22:35 GA-01 μηρασ (μῆρα) without purse and thigh and sandals?? (what would thigh refer to)
John 11:36 GA-05 πω (που?) See, he still loved him. or See, how he loved him.
Acts 18:24-25 GA-05 η τοσ (τόσος) ...mighty in the Scriptures which are great. He had been instructed...
Rom. 8:31 TM-61871 επερ (??) εμον (ἐμός) If God is ?? mine, who can be against us?
1Cor. 15:39 GA-03 πα (πη) How/where is all flesh not the same flesh?
1Thes. 1:7 GA-04 χαια (χάιος) ...and the good places.
2Tim. 4:13 GA-04 μαστα (μαστάζω) ...and bring the scrolls. I will chew on the leather. (Paul not getting fed well in jail?)
1Pet. 2:2 GA-P125 γελα (γελάω) ...babes, you laugh at spiritual pure [things]. You desire [that] ...
Jude 1:7 GA-P72 τερασ (τέρας) going away after flesh sign/monster? (case/gender problem?)

These verses can all be looked up on my website at http://greekcntr.org/manuscripts.htm. Obviously, any of these could just as easily be spelling errors. I am not confident in this and I know some of these are stretches, but I am wondering if you could confirm if any of these readings are 1) possible and/or 2) plausible.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 8th, 2017, 8:09 pm

Is there a way to link directly to a verse, or to a verse for a particular manuscript, on your site?
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Alan Bunning
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by Alan Bunning » January 8th, 2017, 11:27 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:Is there a way to link directly to a verse, or to a verse for a particular manuscript, on your site?
Here it is again with links added:

Matt. 2:16 GA-032 γαμων (γάμος) ...mocked by the weddings (who got married?) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#010216
Matt. 28:3 GA-03 ειδε (εἶδον) And it was where he saw him as lightening?? http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#012803
Mark 7:8 GA-05 τολην can this word stand alone without the εν? http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#020708
Mark 9:28 GA-05 ιαν (ἰά/εἷς) questioned him with voices/as one?? http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#020928
Mark 14:3 GA-05 γυγη (γύγης) ...[there] came to a bird having an alabaster vial?? (case problem?) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#021403
Luke 21:12 GA-03 επιβαλεισ (ἐπιβάλλω) . You will throw yourself before governors... http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#032112
Luke 22:35 GA-01 μηρασ (μῆρα) without purse and thigh and sandals?? (what would thigh refer to) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#032235
John 11:36 GA-05 πω (που?) See, he still loved him. or See, how he loved him. http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#041136
Acts 18:25-26 GA-05 η τοσ (τόσος) ...baptism of John the great. He had been instructed... http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#051825
Rom. 8:31 TM-61871 ει ο θεοσ επερ εμον τισ καθ ημων If God is ?? mine, who can be against us? (I didn’t put this one in yet)
1Cor. 15:39 GA-03 πα (πη) How/where is all flesh not the same flesh? http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#071539
1Thes. 1:7 GA-04 χαια (χάιος) ...and the good places. http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#130107
2Tim. 4:13 GA-04 μαστα (μαστάζω) ...and bring the scrolls. I will chew on the leather. (Paul not getting fed well in jail?) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#160413
1Pet. 2:2 GA-P125 γελα (γελάω) ...babes, you laugh at spiritual pure [things]. You desire [that] ...http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#210202
Jude 1:7 GA-P72 τερασ (τέρας) going away after flesh sign/monster? (case/gender problem?) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#260107
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2017, 12:16 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:Mark 7:8 GA-05 τολην can this word stand alone without the εν? http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#020708
If it did, it would probably be derived from τέλλειν "to rise", "to accomplish". More often than not the form of a word without the prepositions is the most common, but that is not the case here.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2017, 12:30 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:Mark 9:28 GA-05 ιαν (ἰά/εἷς) questioned him with voices/as one?? http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#020928
This form of μία is Epic. Epic is a literary dialect, and it was used for composition during the Koine period and later, but the special forms of Epic don't generally come out of that genre.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2017, 7:25 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:Mark 14:3 GA-05 γυγη (γύγης) ...[there] came to a bird having an alabaster vial?? (case problem?) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#021403
And gender.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2017, 8:07 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:Luke 21:12 GA-03 επιβαλεισ (ἐπιβάλλω) . You will throw yourself before governors... http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#032112
The resulting asyndeton suggests that this might not be plausible, because as the text of Vaticanus stands, ἀπαγομένους would no longer be the object of the preceeding verbs, but even as ἀπαγομένους (δὲ) ἐπιβαλεῖς καὶ ἡγεμόνας, ἀπαγομένους καὶ ἡγεμόνας would be third parties - the object of the transitive verb ἐπιβαλεῖς "you (singular) will place those led away and governors upon,". The lack of agreement in number between ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς and ἐπιβαλεῖς is problematic too.
Luke 21:12 Codex Sinaiticus (emmended) wrote:Πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων ἐπιβαλοῦσιν ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῶν, καὶ διώξουσιν, παραδιδόντες εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς καὶ φυλακάς, ἀπαγομένους ἐπὶ βασιλεῖς καὶ ἡγεμόνας, ἕνεκεν τοῦ ὀνόματός μου.
Luke 21:12 Codex Vaticanus wrote:Πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων ἐπιβαλοῦσιν ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῶν, καὶ διώξουσιν, παραδιδόντες εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς καὶ φυλακάς, ἀπαγομένους ἐπιβαλεῖς καὶ ἡγεμόνας, ἕνεκεν τοῦ ὀνόματός μου.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

toddlprice
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by toddlprice » January 27th, 2017, 12:19 pm

Alan,

I’ve been able to go through some of these. Here are my thoughts:

Matt. 2:16 GA-032 γαμων (γάμος) ...mocked by the weddings (who got married?)

Though it could be gen. pl. γάμος or VPPPNMS from γαμέω, neither makes sense here. CNTTS lists GA-032 alone with this reading. It must be a spelling error.

Matt. 28:3 GA-03 ειδε (εἶδον) And it was where he saw him as lightening??

Not possible since it makes no sense since it follows an article and is followed by a noun in the genitive (ἡ ___ αὐτοῦ). CNTTS lists GA-03 as the lone witness for this. It must be a spelling error.

Mark 7:8 GA-05 τολην can this word stand alone without the εν?

No, not that I can find. Not possible. It must be a spelling error. Again CNTTS lists GA-05 as the lone witness for this.

Mark 9:28 GA-05 ιαν (ἰά/εἷς) questioned him with voices/as one??

No. I don’t see that it occurs elsewhere following κατ. CNTTS lists GA-05 as the lone witness in this ... again.

Mark 14:3 GA-05 γυγη (γύγης) ...[there] came to a bird having an alabaster vial?? (case problem?)

Doesn’t make sense here. Again CNTTS lists GA-05 as the lone witness for this. Otherwise, it seems to only occur as a proper name, Gyges, like in Herodotus, Histories 1.8.

I’ll see if I can find time to look at the others in your list later.

Todd
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cpresson
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by cpresson » February 15th, 2017, 11:04 am

Alan,

I've worked through three more of these and hope to investigate more soon:

Luke 22:35 GA-01 μηρασ (μῆρα) without purse and thigh and sandals?? (what would thigh refer to) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#032235
• Has to be a spelling mistake - one letter difference and occurs only in GA 01

John 11:36 GA-05 πω (που?) See, he still loved him. or See, how he loved him. http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#041136
• If που was intended, it could also make sense if used in the Homeric sense of qualifying the expression (e.g., See, no doubt he loved him); however, I think it is more likely to have just been a spelling mistake where the final sigma was accidentally left off and πως was intended as it occurs in all other MSS

Acts 18:25-26 GA-05 η τοσ (τόσος) ...baptism of John the great. He had been instructed... http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#051825
• I don't think ητος really works here, modifying John. I can't find a use of τοσος as an enclitic and it doesn't really make sense here as η τοσ because I can't find an example use of τοσος only with a particle and it wouldn't make sense with the feminine form of an article or pronoun in reference to John. It's a bit strange, but it only occurs in GA-05 and I can only conclude it is a spelling error.

Chapel Presson
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cpresson
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Re: Possible or plausible?

Post by cpresson » February 16th, 2017, 10:30 am

Alan,

Here are my thoughts on the rest of your list:

Rom. 8:31 TM-61871 ει ο θεοσ επερ εμον τισ καθ ημων If God is ?? mine, who can be against us? (I didn’t put this one in yet)
• The only thing I can come up with for επερ εμον here is if ειπερ was intended, which could make sense as "if/since God is really/indeed mine, who can be against us?" Since it only occurs in TM-61871, I'm not sure how plausible that rendering is. The grammar also is odd, using first person singular in the first part of the condition and first person plural in the second part. That makes me think it's more likely a spelling or copying error for both words.

1Cor. 15:39 GA-03 πα (πη) How/where is all flesh not the same flesh? http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#071539
• In Doric use, πα is used for πη. Occuring together with ου, πα can then have the meaning of "not in any way" or "not at all". So then the phrase could make a little sense as "In no way is flesh the same flesh." But the wording doesn't really flow that way, so I don't think it's a plausible rendering.

1Thes. 1:7 GA-04 χαια (χάιος) ...and the good places. http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#130107
• I don't think χαια is possible here given the context in which he has already named a specific location. Most likely this is a copying or spelling error.

2Tim. 4:13 GA-04 μαστα (μαστάζω) ...and bring the scrolls. I will chew on the leather. (Paul not getting fed well in jail?) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#160413
• Again, given the context, I don't think μαστα is a possible reading. I think it is most likely a spelling error. Also, μεμβρανα seems to be always used for "parchment" in a book sense and not in reference to the material of the parchment.

1Pet. 2:2 GA-P125 γελα (γελάω) ...babes, you laugh at spiritual pure [things]. You desire [that] ...http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#210202
• I don’t believe γελα is possible here given the imperative that follows and the context around it (accusative singular neuter adjectives). I think it is most likely a spelling error and γαλα is the intended reading.

Jude 1:7 GA-P72 τερασ (τέρας) going away after flesh sign/monster? (case/gender problem?) http://greek-language.com/cntr/collatio ... htm#260107
• Τερας does not make sense here and has the wrong case and gender to occur with σαρκος. I think most likely it is a copying error.

Hopefully this is helpful! :)

Chapel Presson
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