ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Jonathan Robie
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ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 4th, 2017, 11:06 am

As far as I can tell, names are identified using the dative when ὄνομα does not take an article, and with the genitive when it does have an article.

ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου
ὄνομά σοι ... τὸ ὄνομά σου
ὄνομα αὐτῷ ... τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ
ὄνομα αὐτῇ ... τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς

Examples:
καὶ ἐπηρώτα αὐτόν Τί ὄνομά σοι; καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ Λεγιὼν ὄνομά μοι
καὶ ἔσεσθε μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου
καὶ ἐγνώρισα αὐτοῖς τὸ ὄνομά σου
ἄνθρωπος ἐκ τῶν Φαρισαίων, Νικόδημος ὄνομα αὐτῷ
ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν
καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς Ἐλεισάβετ

Can anyone explain why this is?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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MAubrey
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by MAubrey » August 4th, 2017, 1:45 pm

The datives are predicative functioning at the level of the clause, while the genitives function within the NP.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 7th, 2017, 10:15 am

MAubrey wrote:
August 4th, 2017, 1:45 pm
The datives are predicative functioning at the level of the clause, while the genitives function within the NP.
Yes, I think that's right.

Luke 1:63 is one case where the genitive does not have an article.
Ἰωάννης ἐστὶν ὄνομα αὐτοῦ
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Girgis Boshra
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Girgis Boshra » August 9th, 2017, 4:34 am

there are many ways, like: possessive pronouns (ἐμός, ἐμή, ἐμόν; σός, σῇ, σόν; ἡμέτερος, ἡμετέρα, ἡμέτερον; ὑμέτερος, ὑμετέρᾳ, ὑμέτερον), verbs (ἔχω), adjectives like ( ἴδιος , α , ον), and what mentioned above is simply two ways to express possessive, dative Case sometimes comes with (εἰμί), personal pronouns in genitive case with determined noun (by article, sometimes without if it is proper namelike: Ἰωάννης ἐστὶν ὄνομα αὐτοῦ)
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Paul-Nitz
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Paul-Nitz » August 30th, 2017, 10:03 am

MAubrey wrote:
August 4th, 2017, 1:45 pm
The datives are predicative functioning at the level of the clause, while the genitives function within the NP.
Could someone explain Aubrey's comment to me?
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Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 30th, 2017, 11:32 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:
August 30th, 2017, 10:03 am
MAubrey wrote:
August 4th, 2017, 1:45 pm
The datives are predicative functioning at the level of the clause, while the genitives function within the NP.
Could someone explain Aubrey's comment to me?
Put an "is" between the noun and the dative and don't be tempted to put an "is" between the noun and the genitive.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jason Hare
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jason Hare » August 31st, 2017, 2:17 am

We see ὄνομα αὐτῷ __ used a lot to tell what someone's name is inside of another sentence or something.

ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης. (John 1.6)

I would assume that «ὄνομά μοι» should actually be used in situations like this, as a sort of separated part of a sentence and not as a main clause on its own. For a main clause, I would think that καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομά (or, τοὔνομά) μου...

1: τί καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομά σου;
2: καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομά μου Ἰάσων.

I think it strange that we still wrestle with phraseology regarding something that we all use when we have our spoken lessons on Skype and Google Hangouts.

I mean, look at how the phrase books (such as this one) tell us to state our age. It uses a perfect participle! That's not right at all, since the participle would hang on another part of a sentence. We have a few examples of age in the NT, and this is how they are stated:

Mark 5:42 - καὶ εὐθὺς ἀνέστη τὸ κοράσιον καὶ περιεπάτει, ἦν γὰρ ἐτῶν δώδεκα. καὶ ἐξέστησαν εὐθὺς ἐκστάσει μεγάλῃ.
Luke 2:42 - καὶ ὅτε ἐγένετο ἐτῶν δώδεκα, ἀναβαινόντων αὐτῶν κατὰ τὸ ἔθος τῆς ἑορτῆς...
Luke 3:23 - Καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν Ἰησοῦς ἀρχόμενος ὡσεὶ ἐτῶν τριάκοντα, ὢν υἱός, ὡς ἐνομίζετο, Ἰωσὴφ τοῦ Ἠλὶ...
John 8:57 - εἶπον οὖν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι πρὸς αὐτόν· Πεντήκοντα ἔτη οὔπω ἔχεις καὶ Ἀβραὰμ ἑώρακας;
Acts 4:22 - ἐτῶν γὰρ ἦν πλειόνων τεσσεράκοντα ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἐφ’ ὃν γεγόνει τὸ σημεῖον τοῦτο τῆς ἰάσεως.

These are some clear examples from the NT, and we can draw conclusions from them about how to tell your age.

(1) "I am x years old." = εἰμί + gen. (ἐτῶν) + numeral [ἐτῶν τριάκοντα καὶ ἕπτα εἰμί. I am 37 years old.]
(2) "I become x years old." = ἄρχεσθαι + gen. (ἐτῶν) + numeral [ἐτῶν τριάκοντα καὶ ἕπτα ἠρξάμην. I turned 37 years old.]
(3) "I am x years old." = ἔχω + numeral + acc. (ἔτη) [τριάκοντα καὶ ἕπτα ἔτη ἔχω. I am 37 years old.]

This is what I think can be pulled from this. Why, then, does that phrasebook encourage us to use the perfect participle when there are perfectly good ways to say this?

I find myself frustrated with phrasebooks. I wish we could all clean up a really good copy and use it consistently.

It other words, it seems that we should be asking πηλικὸς εἶ; how old are you? and responding with ἐτῶν Χ εἰμί I am of x years.

We should also find a more consistent and faithful way of telling someone what our names are.

What do you think?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 31st, 2017, 6:55 am

Jason Hare wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 2:17 am
I find myself frustrated with phrasebooks. I wish we could all clean up a really good copy and use it consistently.

It other words, it seems that we should be asking πηλικὸς εἶ; how old are you? and responding with ἐτῶν Χ εἰμί I am of x years.

We should also find a more consistent and faithful way of telling someone what our names are.
I agree, and I would be happy to explore that here. In fact, the reason I asked the question is that I ran into this problem in the introductory Greek materials Micheal Palmer and I are working on, and trying to find the right formulation we would use in such a phrasebook. If we want an authentic phrasebook, we may want to avoid going beyond what people said to each other back then.
I would assume that «ὄνομά μοι» should actually be used in situations like this, as a sort of separated part of a sentence and not as a main clause on its own. For a main clause, I would think that καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομά (or, τοὔνομά) μου...
1: τί καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομά σου;
2: καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομά μου Ἰάσων.
I haven't really researched this, are there places where someone asks for someone else's name using καλεῖται, or gives their name using καλεῖται?

I am currently using this:

1. Τί ὄνομά σοι;
2. Ἰωνάθαν ὄνομά μοι.

It follows this pattern:
Mark 5:9 wrote:Τί ὄνομά σοι; καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ· Λεγιὼν ὄνομά μοι, ὅτι πολλοί ἐσμεν·
I think you could also say this:

1. Τί ἐστιν τὸ ὄνομά σου;
2. Ἰωνάθαν ἐστιν τὸ ὄνομά μου.

Ideally, I would like a phrasebook to offer more than one way to say something, and provide similar sentences in the Hellenistic corpus.

A comment on word order: I think the focus is on Ἰωνάθαν, especially since that's what the question asked for, so I think it should come first. And asking and answering questions is a great way for beginners to get a sense for word order for just that reason.

For me, that's the thing that first gave me a feel for word order issues in discourse analysis. Often what it boils down to is this: the order of words in a sentence depends a lot on the question the writer is trying to answer. So if I see a sentence with a word order I wasn't expecting, I find it helpful to try to formulate the corresponding question.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 31st, 2017, 12:05 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 2:17 am
In other words, it seems that we should be asking πηλικὸς εἶ; how old are you? and responding with ἐτῶν Χ εἰμί I am of x years.
Interesting, it really does seem to be πηλικὸς εἶ;

I haven't spent much time on it, but I don't quickly find instances of πηλικὸς ἐτῶν εἶ;
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 31st, 2017, 3:41 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 2:17 am
We see ὄνομα αὐτῷ __ used a lot to tell what someone's name is inside of another sentence or something.
...

I find myself frustrated with phrasebooks. I wish we could all clean up a really good copy and use it consistently.

What do you think?
There are probably a number of levels of context involved in this issue, rather than looking for a simple consistency to match the English, "What is your name?".

In a social context, the idea of "How do others address you as?", "What name are you known by?" might be expressed by:

τι ὀνομάζῃ; "What is your name?"
τι ἐπονομάζῃ; "What is your surname (in our culture)?"

In narrative / description, there are things using ὄνομα as you have found within sentences.

Looking someone in the eyes and prompting them with a question to divulge their name, you might say:
Σὺ τίς εἶ;
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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