ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Jonathan Robie
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 31st, 2017, 4:10 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 3:41 pm
There are probably a number of levels of context involved in this issue, rather than looking for a simple consistency to match the English, "What is your name?".

In a social context, the idea of "How do others address you as?", "What name are you known by?" might be expressed by:

τι ὀνομάζῃ; "What is your name?"
τι ἐπονομάζῃ; "What is your surname (in our culture)?"

In narrative / description, there are things using ὄνομα as you have found within sentences.
Can you give examples where someone is asked "what is your name" using καλεῖται or ὀνομάζῃ in the Hellenistic corpus? It's quite possible that this is true, but I would like to see examples before being sure. I worry that we might wind up teaching people the Greek equivalent of asking people "what are you called" in English.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 3:41 pm
Looking someone in the eyes and prompting them with a question to divulge their name, you might say:
Σὺ τίς εἶ;
That, of course, is well attested.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jason Hare » August 31st, 2017, 7:07 pm

From Perseus ἐκαλεῖτο:
Apollodorus wrote:Εὐρώπην δὲ γήμας Ἀστέριος ὁ Κρητῶν δυνάστης τοὺς ἐκ ταύτης παῖδας ἔτρεφεν. οἱ δὲ ὡς ἐτελειώθησαν, πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἐστασίασαν: ἴσχουσι γὰρ ἔρωτα παιδὸς ὃς ἐκαλεῖτο Μίλητος, Ἀπόλλωνος δὲ ἦν καὶ Ἀρείας τῆς Κλεόχου.
Now Asterius, prince of the Cretans, married Europa and brought up her children. But when they were grown up, they quarrelled with each other; for they loved a boy called Miletus, son of Apollo by Aria, daughter of Cleochus.
ὃς ἐκαλεῖτο Μίλητος... who was called Miletus...
Josephus wrote:Θνήσκει δὲ καὶ αὐτὸς ἐπιβουλευθεὶς ἐν συμποσίῳ ὑπὸ Πτολεμαίου τοῦ γαμβροῦ, ὃς αὐτοῦ τήν τε γυναῖκα καὶ τοὺς δύο παῖδας ἐγκαθείρξας ἐπὶ τὸν τρίτον Ἰωάννην, ὃς καὶ Ὑρκανὸς ἐκαλεῖτο, τοὺς ἀναιρήσοντας ἔπεμψεν.
This Simon also had a plot laid against him, and was slain at a feast by his son-in-law Ptolemy, who put his wife and two sons into prison, and sent some persons to kill John, who was also called Hyrcanus.
ὃς καὶ Ὑρκανὸς ἐκαλεῖτο... who was also called Hyrcanus...

So, from these passages, it seems that καλεῖσθαι would be used normally to say how someone is called. So, it could be either:
  • τί καλῇ; What are you called?
  • τί καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομά σου; What is your name called?
From Apollodorus, we see:
Apollodorus wrote:ὁ δὲ οἰκέτης Ἀγέλαος ὠνομάζετο.
The household slave's name was Agelaus.
Either way, it seems that we can say about names:
  • Ἰάσων καλοῦμαι.
  • τὸ ὄνομά μου Ἰάσων καλεῖται.
  • Ἰάσων ὀνομάζομαι.
This isn't to rule out other things, but these things are certainly attested.
Jason A. Hare
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Stephen Carlson » August 31st, 2017, 8:51 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 6:55 am
I am currently using this:
1. Τί ὄνομά σοι;
2. Ἰωνάθαν ὄνομά μοι.
That's funny--I answer it completely differently: Στέφανος ὄνομά μοι.

(Uh, I'll show myself out now.)
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 1st, 2017, 5:11 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 4:10 pm
Can you give examples where someone is asked "what is your name" using καλεῖται or ὀνομάζῃ in the Hellenistic corpus? It's quite possible that this is true, but I would like to see examples before being sure.
I don't think examples are going to provide the conclusivity that seem to expect. There is an example that seemingly mirrors one of the Modern Greek structure like, πῶς ὀνομάζεται ὁ ἀδελφός σου; "What's your brother's name?"
John, of Damascus, Vita Barlaam et Joasaph, 31 wrote:Θεὸν δὲ τίς ἀγοράζει; Θεὸν τίς πωλεῖ; θεὸς δὲ ἀκίνητος πῶς ὀνομάζεται θεός; ἢ οὐχ ὁρᾷς ὅτι ὁ μὲν ἑστὼς οὐδέποτε καθέζεται, ὁ δὲ καθεζόμενος οὐδέποτε ἀνίσταται;
But here it seems to be a rhetorical question, using the potential meaning of the passive voice, "How is it possible for a "god" (popularly etymologised as from θέω - "I run quickly") which can not even move itself to lay claim to the name god?"
There is of course always guesswork. Guesswork can be guided by understanding. I will discuss a few aspects of guess-guiding understanding here.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 4:10 pm
I worry that we might wind up teaching people the Greek equivalent of asking people "what are you called" in English.
No matter how much you try, you are going to fail. That is the fact of life for non-native foreign language teachers (even native speakers usually dumbing the language down into some form a pidgin version of what they usually speak to make it simpler for students). Your example from the New Testament is a case in point about that inevitability.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 6:55 am
It follows this pattern:
Mark 5:9 wrote:Τί ὄνομά σοι; καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ· Λεγιὼν ὄνομά μοι, ὅτι πολλοί ἐσμεν·
I think you could also say this:
1. Τί ἐστιν τὸ ὄνομά σου;
2. Ἰωνάθαν ἐστιν τὸ ὄνομά μου.

I read the dialogue with the demoniac as, "By what right or authority do you possess him?", "What authority do you have?", not "Hello, how are you, this is the first time we've met, so let's get on a first name basis here." The demoniac replies, "Regiment, bute force of numbers gives me the right.", not , "Oh, I'm sorry, did I forget to mention my name among my screaming and self-mutilation, it's Legion. By the way, that's spelt L-E-G-I-O-N, not E-O-N."

This line of questioning is similar to the "room" discussion a year or two ago. The assumption that there must be a word for so simple a concept as "room", a generic term for a space in a building with four walls and a door that is so fundamental to understanding structures in our culture. Names without meaning are a cultural phenomenon, name as individual and personal identifiers are too. Rooms arenot about their shape, but their function, with various suffixes such as -ειον or -(τ)ηριον. I've worked a passage into this thread at the bottom there, which explains that process of naming spaces.

Names are not simply about the string of syllables tnat identify someone as an individual, but have a range of functions. In general Western culture, names with significance are relegated to being nick-names, or jovial appelations like, " Here comes the world's greatest cook". The examples of people, whose names are given using καλεῖται (in relative and subordinate clauses), seem to be hyphenated significantly.

By (hyphenated or used) significantly I mean like where, Ὁ οἶκός μου οἶκος προσευχῆς has the meaning spelt out, rather than a transliterated form of בְּבֵ֣ית תְּפִלָּתִ֔י (Isaiah 56:7) for which no meaning might have been thought necessay - a toponym at some point. I think that there may be either a soteriologically significantly hyphenation of Βηθλέεμ in ἥτις καλεῖται Βηθλέεμ (Lc. 2:4) as בֵּֽית ־ לֶ֣חֶם. (Micah 5:1 or 2) "house of bread (the staple of existence)", or it may be in some other way significant. Also the Jesus in καὶ ἐκλήθη τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦς (Lc.2:21), seems to be hyphenated Je-sus "Jehovah is our salvation", following from Τέξεται δὲ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν· αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν (Mt. 1:21). That is different from οὗτός ἐστιν Ἰησοῦς ὁ υἱὸς Ἰωσήφ (Jn. 6:42) where merely the disignation of an individual is intended, when constructed with the verb to be. My point is that there seems to be a difference between saying οὗτός ἐστιν Ἰωνάθαν "That is Jonathan" (that particular bloke) and καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰωνάθαν (יְה֣וֹנָתָ֔ן) as "His name carries the recognisable significance of 'Jehovah graciously gave us (a son)'". That is not to say that - like pet-names in English - a simple construction can not have a large significance. There are a plethora of examples of how various descriptions and self descriptions became appelations - especially in liturgical usage.

Another related point is the following strategy for finding nuance in certain classes of word. There are two types of words, for which we as English speaking learners need some impetus or help to get beyond simple one-to-one eqivalences between Greek and English. The first is the word lists in chapters 1-5 of our beginners' textbook, where we learnt words as one-word equivalences - the BDAG entry for εὐρίσκω is an example of this, where every section somehow trace a meaning bavk to "find". The second group are cognate words - the word ἔργον is probably the most unfortunate of these forced equivalence based on ignoring about 4,000 years of history.

Unfortunately "call" - καλέω and "name" - ὄνομα fall into both of those two categories. One way that I have found useul in that situation is to restrict the use of "call" or "name" (in this case), and try understanding without them.

In passages like these:
Diodorus Siculus, 14.16.5 (part) wrote:ἐξεπολιόρκησαν δὲ καὶ τὴν Οὐόλσκων πόλιν, ἣ τότε μὲν Ἄνξωρ ἐκαλεῖτο, νῦν δ᾽ ὀνομάζεται Ταρρακίνη.
Avoiding "call" and "name", we might understand it as, "at the time of its surrender after seige, the city was know by its older foreign name of establishment Anzur, but these days it is known by everybody as Tarracine."
Appian, Wars in Spain, 1.2 wrote:καὶ Ταρτησσός μοι δοκεῖ τότε εἶναι πόλις ἐπὶ θαλάσσης, ἣ νῦν Καρπησσὸς ὀνομάζεται.
Here we might take ὀνομάζεται as "which is now know by the name", or avoiding "name", perhaps "popularly referred to as".

As an extension and to make another point, by taking the distinction in meaning between the words that I have suggested in this thread, and applying it to
Plutarch, On exile, 5 wrote:ἀλλὰ γίγνεται μᾶλλον δ᾽ ὀνομάζεται καὶ καλεῖται τούτων ἕκαστον ἀεὶ πρὸς τὸν οἰκοῦντα καὶ χρώμενον.
Then we might get, "Each of those (places in our home city) becomes, and more than just become, always come to both known as, and to get the (official) designation of (for example), a house for the place of dwelling and either a farm or metalworker's workshop for what use people make of the space".
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

MAubrey
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by MAubrey » September 3rd, 2017, 9:58 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
August 30th, 2017, 10:03 am
MAubrey wrote:
August 4th, 2017, 1:45 pm
The datives are predicative functioning at the level of the clause, while the genitives function within the NP.
Could someone explain Aubrey's comment to me?
Did this get sufficiently explained? Or do I need to clarify it?
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jonathan Robie » September 4th, 2017, 10:57 am

MAubrey wrote:
September 3rd, 2017, 9:58 pm
Paul-Nitz wrote:
August 30th, 2017, 10:03 am
MAubrey wrote:
August 4th, 2017, 1:45 pm
The datives are predicative functioning at the level of the clause, while the genitives function within the NP.
Could someone explain Aubrey's comment to me?
Did this get sufficiently explained? Or do I need to clarify it?
Here's how I understood it - let me know if I got it right. I assume you are using the phrase "predicative dative" as Robertson defines it.
Screen Shot 2017-09-04 at 10.51.44 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-09-04 at 10.51.44 AM.png (46.08 KiB) Viewed 718 times
In the sentence "it seemed clear to me", "to me" is a predicative dative, right?

So at the clause level, it comes out as an indirect object (using Treedown):

p Λεγιὼν
s ὄνομά
io μοι

p Νικόδημος
s ὄνομα
io αὐτῷ

As opposed to the genitive, which is part of the noun phrase:

cj καὶ
v ἐγνώρισα
io αὐτοῖς
o τὸ ὄνομά σου

v ἐκάλεσεν
o τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ
o2 Ἰησοῦν

Did I understand you correctly?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jonathan Robie » September 4th, 2017, 11:34 am

ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 5th, 2017, 1:16 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
August 31st, 2017, 2:17 am
It other words, it seems that we should be asking πηλικὸς εἶ; how old are you? and responding with ἐτῶν Χ εἰμί I am of x years.
That πηλίκος (note the accent) seems to be a conglomerant, along the lines of adding a "wh-" to the the front and number-case ending at the end of the of ἡλικ-ία in the sense of "age". π-ηλίκος εἶ; Wh-age are you?

The form of the question probably follow the usual change to πηλίκη εἶ; in suitable contexts.

In that same quotation from Xenophanes of Colophon listed in the LSJ under πηλίκος, there is also a less direct question πόσα τοι ἔτη ἐστί; asked first, where τοι is a dative "to you".
Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists, 2.44 wrote:Ξενοφάνης ὁ Κολοφώνιος ἐν παρῳδίαις:


πὰρ πυρὶ χρὴ τοιαῦτα λέγειν χειμῶνος ἐν ὥρῃ
ἐν κλίνῃ μαλακῇ κατακείμενον, ἔμπλεον ὄντα,
πίνοντα γλυκὺν οἶνον, ὑποτρώγοντ᾽ ἐρεβίνθους:
τίς πόθεν εἶς ἀνδρῶν, πόσα τοι ἔτη ἐστί, φέριστε;
πηλίκος ἦσθ᾽ ὅθ᾽ ὁ Μῆδος ἀφίκετο;
Xenophanes the Colophonian says, in his Parodies—

These are what one should talk of near the fire,
In winter season, on soft couch reclined,
After a plenteous meal, drinking rich wine,
And eating vetches. Then a man may ask,
"Who are you? How old are you, my friend?
How many years old were you when the Mede came"
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Jason Hare » September 6th, 2017, 3:48 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
September 5th, 2017, 1:16 pm
That πηλίκος (note the accent) seems to be a conglomerant, along the lines of adding a "wh-" to the the front and number-case ending at the end of the of ἡλικ-ία in the sense of "age". π-ηλίκος εἶ; Wh-age are you?
Thanks for that.

I got the accent (*πηλικός) from this page. I'm not sure why he used that accentuation. I didn't look up the word for myself.

LSJ gives the meaning for πηλίκος as "how great" or "how large," which leads me to think that πηλίκος εἶ; is similar to how we ask a child "so, how big are you now?" expecting them to respond with their age ("I'm this big!" or "I'm this many!" holding up three fingers). I liked what you offered afterward:

«πόσα τοι ἔτη ἐστί;»
Since τοι would be σοι in Koiné, we might say πόσα σοι ἔτη ἐστίν; "how old are you?" (lit, "how many years are to you?").
Jason A. Hare
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Re: ὄνομά μοι ... τὸ ὄνομά μου

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 6th, 2017, 7:19 am

πηλίκος ἦσθ᾽ ὅθ᾽ ὁ Μῆδος ἀφίκετο;
Jason Hare wrote:
September 6th, 2017, 3:48 am
LSJ gives the meaning for πηλίκος as "how great" or "how large," which leads me to think that πηλίκος εἶ; is similar to how we ask a child "so, how big are you now?" expecting them to respond with their age ("I'm this big!" or "I'm this many!" holding up three fingers).
If "stature", was the most important feature of πηλίκος in that quote from Xenophanes, then it may indicate that the Medes arrived at sometime during his childhood, when age and stature are correlative. There are examples in LSJ of ἡλικία in reference to age being used of adults. The scared parents in the NT referred to him (ἡλικίαν ἔχει) (John 9:21, 23), being of (having attained) (full) stature. Old age references may be about the noticeable shortening that happens in old age??

Here is a hotlink to an image at https://www.spreadshirt.de/evolution+re ... -A30951505 of heights throughout one's life:
Image

LSJ says that etymologically ἧλιξ relates to time not stature.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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