Legitimate word forms?

RandallButh
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by RandallButh » September 5th, 2018, 4:12 pm

On system and phonology, there are myriad examples.

In Greek, there was a great vowel shift 3cBCE-1cBCE that spread around the Mediterranean in the world after Alexander the Great. The following vowels merged:

ει and ι
αι and ε
ω and ο
οι and υ

Phonologically, what explains all of these mergers? There is a single feature that can explain this. Length dropped out of the system, leaving seven vowel qualities. In addition, the dropping of length caused some diphthongs to be fit into the system as vowel + consonant. So ευ, αυ, and ηυ eventually became homophonic with εβ, αβ, and αβ. These changes often took centuries to work out world-wide. As final changes, η merged with  ει/ι and then οι/υ merged with ει/ι, producing the "modern" five-vowel system by the second half of the first millenium.

A similar mass of change happened in English after the black death of 1350. People moved around in new patterns and over the following three centuries the modern English vowel system developed (although the spelling remains Chaucerian). Again, the changes took time to work out and develop through stages into the new system. However, there are dialects where the new changes were resisted. Many little layers can be traced in dialects among the 11 or so vowels in English. See the Midland American English article in Wiki for the briefest of intros to this.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 5th, 2018, 7:42 pm

LSJ actually has an entry for μετοξύ. Here it is:
μετοξύ,
A v. μεταξύ.
Make of it what you will.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Alan Bunning
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by Alan Bunning » September 5th, 2018, 7:58 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 7:42 pm
LSJ actually has an entry for μετοξύ. Here it is:
μετοξύ,
A v. μεταξύ.
Make of it what you will.
That's interesting. I could not get it to come up on Perseus. So I looked at what I thought was a PDF of LSJ, and it wasn't in there. Turns out I must have an earlier LS (no J) version. So is there a online PDF of LSJ somewhere?
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 5th, 2018, 11:48 pm

LSJ is online at logeion, TLG, and Archimedes. I'll have to check my printed LSJM at home to see if it's in there; I hardly use it anymore.

None of the thousands of textσ with millions of words online at TLG has μετοξύ. It does not appear to be a form recognized by editors.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 6th, 2018, 9:18 am

Yep, it’s in my LSJM.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Alan Bunning
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by Alan Bunning » September 6th, 2018, 10:20 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
September 6th, 2018, 9:18 am
Yep, it’s in my LSJM.
Thanks for checking.
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Alan Bunning
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by Alan Bunning » September 6th, 2018, 10:25 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 11:48 pm
None of the thousands of textσ with millions of words online at TLG has μετοξύ. It does not appear to be a form recognized by editors.
I am wondering if the editors altered the word to fit the norms, or if it didn't exist in those texts. The word does show up in a number of other texts if you google the word without any accent. With the NT, you wouldn't see μετοξύ in any critical text because of TC or perhaps editor choice, but it does exist in the wild.
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RandallButh
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by RandallButh » September 6th, 2018, 2:06 pm

this may help reshape the discussion in the proper directions.

μετοξύ is a form whose development is not clear according to data presented, but it is an attested form.

Note well, it is not evidence that [ α ] was pronounced the same as [ ο ]. It is only evidence that an alternative, dialectical form existed.
Significant evidence exists elsewhere the [ α ] and [ ο ] were phonemically distinctive throughout the Koine period and in multiple dialects.
Corroborative evidence showing an [ α ] [ ο ] merger would be necessary before discussing a phonetic equivalency explanation of μεταξὐ and μετοξὐ.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Legitimate word forms?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 6th, 2018, 4:35 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:
September 6th, 2018, 10:25 am
Stephen Carlson wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 11:48 pm
None of the thousands of textσ with millions of words online at TLG has μετοξύ. It does not appear to be a form recognized by editors.
I am wondering if the editors altered the word to fit the norms, or if it didn't exist in those texts. The word does show up in a number of other texts if you google the word without any accent. With the NT, you wouldn't see μετοξύ in any critical text because of TC or perhaps editor choice, but it does exist in the wild.

"μετοξύ, v. μεταξύ."

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 1121). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

"μεταξύ (late form μετοξύ PLond.2.177.11 (i A.D.), etc.), Adv., (μετά, ξύν) prop. in the midst: hence..."

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 1115). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

I have a fairly large Greek papyri collection in Logos from Perseus, and that's where it seems to show up, e.g.:

[ἐπιγαμίας πρ]ὸς γυναῖκ̣[ας, ἃς] τότε εἶχον, ὅτε αὐτοῖς ἡ πολιτεία ἐδόθη, ἢ εἴ τινες ἄγαμοι εἶεν, π̣[ρὸς ἃς ἐὰν] μετοξὺ̣ [ἀγάγωσι, τοῦ μέχρι μιᾶς ἕκας]-

PSI: Papiri greci e latini. (n.d.). Perseus Digital Library.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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