Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Jean Putmans
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Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Jean Putmans » November 19th, 2019, 7:12 am

In Luke 5:30

NA28 has
και εγογγυζον οι φαρισαιοι και οι γραμματεις αυτων προς τους μαθητας αυτου λεγοντες δια τι μετα των τελωνων και αμαρτωλων εσθιετε και πινετε

αυτων is refering to φαρισαιοι.

But RP2005 has
και εγογγυζον οι γραμματεις αυτων και οι φαρισαιοι προς τους μαθητας αυτου λεγοντες δια τι μετα των τελωνων και αμαρτωλων εσθιετε και πινετε

What is αυτων (in RP 2005) refering to?
I haven't found any Information on cataphoric usage of the Personal Pronoun (which would be needed here, to have αυτων refering to φαρισαιοι; it cannot refer to the people in the house of the taxcollector, because no γραμματευς would ever enter such a house).

(By the way: Basil t.Gr., Chrysostom and Cyril of Alex. and the Gothic Bible have the Byzantine reading of this Verse!).

The Parallels in NT don't help much:

In Mark 2:16 RP2005 just mentions γραμματεις and φαρισαιοι, whilst NA28 makes the γραμματεις a subgroup of the φαρισαιοι.

RP2005
και οι γραμματεις και οι φαρισαιοι ιδοντες αυτον εσθιοντα μετα των τελωνων και αμαρτωλων ελεγον τοις μαθηταις αυτου τι οτι μετα των τελωνων και αμαρτωλων εσθιει και πινει

NA28
και οι γραμματεις των φαρισαιων ιδοντες οτι εσθιει μετα των αμαρτωλων και τελωνων ελεγον τοις μαθηταις αυτου οτι μετα των τελωνων και αμαρτωλων εσθιει

Matthew doesn't even mention the γραμματεις in the parallel-Verses :

Matthew 9:10/11
ΒΥΖ
και εγενετο αυτου ανακειμενου εν τη οικια και ιδου πολλοι τελωναι και αμαρτωλοι ελθοντες συνανεκειντο τω ιησου και τοις μαθηταις αυτου
και ιδοντες οι φαρισαιοι ειπον τοις μαθηταις αυτου δια τι μετα των τελωνων και αμαρτωλων εσθιει ο διδασκαλος υμων

ΝΑ28
και εγενετο αυτου ανακειμενου εν τη οικια και ιδου πολλοι τελωναι και αμαρτωλοι ελθοντες συνανεκειντο τω ιησου και τοις μαθηταις αυτου
και ιδοντες οι φαρισαιοι ελεγον τοις μαθηταις αυτου δια τι μετα των τελωνων και αμαρτωλων εσθιει ο διδασκαλος υμων

So again: What is αυτων in the byzantine Text refering to?


Regards
Jean
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Jean Putmans
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 19th, 2019, 9:09 am

The former reading is anaphoric, the later cataphoric. In either case, the antecedent is φαρασαῖοι.
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Jean Putmans
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Jean Putmans » November 21st, 2019, 4:08 am

Thanks Barry,

Is the cataphoric use of αυτος a very rare use of the personal pronoun?

The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek 2019 states:

Par. 29.7
"When used as a third-person pronoun, αυτός always refers back to someone or
something introduced before (anaphoric use)"

So, according to that Grammar, cataphoric use, as in the byz. text, would be at least unusual.

Regards,

Jean
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Peng Huiguo » November 21st, 2019, 9:45 am

Jean Putmans wrote:
November 19th, 2019, 7:12 am
no γραμματευς would ever enter such a house
Actually here some of them apparently did, otherwise how could they speak to Jesus and his disciples? A house holding such a large reception party must include the yard and possibly a couple of streets outside. There's no clear point of entry.

Let the text flow in its own context, don't try to harmonize it to another text. You may find the RP text actually makes sense in a grammatically routine way and is more descriptive than the NA28 one.

Read RP's vv. 29 and 30 together; αὐτῶν can point to πολὺς ἄλλων, and can mean "among, but apart from", with a bleeding effect to οἱ Φαρισαῖοι as if there's another αὐτῶν after it. It doesn't mean "their". Wallace classified such as "partitive genitive".
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 21st, 2019, 10:17 am

Interesting that it would claim "always." Almost never is anything "always..." :) In this context, it cannot be read any other way. This is probably one reason why it's a text critical issue.
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Peng Huiguo » November 21st, 2019, 10:19 am

> In this context, it cannot be read any other way.
> This is probably one reason why it's a text critical issue.

It's not. You're reading RP in the context of NA28.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 21st, 2019, 11:19 am

Peng Huiguo wrote:
November 21st, 2019, 9:45 am
Jean Putmans wrote:
November 19th, 2019, 7:12 am
no γραμματευς would ever enter such a house
Actually here some of them apparently did, otherwise how could they speak to Jesus and his disciples? A house holding such a large reception party must include the yard and possibly a couple of streets outside. There's no clear point of entry.

Let the text flow in its own context, don't try to harmonize it to another text. You may find the RP text actually makes sense in a grammatically routine way and is more descriptive than the NA28 one.

Read RP's vv. 29 and 30 together; αὐτῶν can point to πολὺς ἄλλων, and can mean "among, but apart from", with a bleeding effect to οἱ Φαρισαῖοι as if there's another αὐτῶν after it. It doesn't mean "their". Wallace classified such as "partitive genitive".
Let's get the text out here, NAS and Byzantine:

29 Καὶ ἐποίησεν δοχὴν μεγάλην Λευὶς αὐτῷ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἦν ὄχλος πολὺς τελωνῶν καὶ ἄλλων οἳ ἦσαν μετʼ αὐτῶν κατακείμενοι. 30 καὶ ἐγόγγυζον οἱ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς αὐτῶν πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ λέγοντες, Διὰ τί μετὰ τῶν τελωνῶν καὶ ἁμαρτωλῶν ἐσθίετε καὶ πίνετε;

29 Καὶ ἐποίησεν δοχὴν μεγάλην Λευὶς αὐτῷ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ αὐτοῦ· καὶ ἦν ὄχλος τελωνῶν πολύς, καὶ ἄλλων οἳ ἦσαν μετʼ αὐτῶν κατακείμενοι. 30 Καὶ ἐγόγγυζον οἱ γραμματεῖς αὐτῶν καὶ οἱ Φαρισαῖοι πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ, λέγοντες, Διὰ τί μετὰ τῶν τελωνῶν καὶ ἁμαρτωλῶν ἐσθίετε καὶ πίνετε;

(Do you guys like the way I did the formatting? :) ) I'm not at all happy with assuming that the antecedent would be ἦν ὄχλος πολὺς τελωνῶν καὶ ἄλλων. "The scribes of the crowd of tax collectors?" That won't do at all. "The scribes of the others?" That's too vague. Throughout the NT we have the scribes and Pharisees normally linked, which anyone even loosely aware of the context would know.

And what you've said here:
Read RP's vv. 29 and 30 together; αὐτῶν can point to πολὺς ἄλλων, and can mean "among, but apart from", with a bleeding effect to οἱ Φαρισαῖοι as if there's another αὐτῶν after it. It doesn't mean "their". Wallace classified such as "partitive genitive".
Makes no sense to me whatsoever. How can any of this mean "among, but apart from" and what do you mean by "bleeding effect?"
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Peng Huiguo » November 21st, 2019, 2:14 pm

Jean, if you can get over the notion that the scribes and pharisees would not join a party thrown by a tax-collector, the anaphoric use of αὐτῶν here reads more naturally than the cataphoric one, don't you think? The greek genitive case doesn't always map to the english "of". I actually prefer RP's version to NA28's. It wasn't a text critical mistake; Robinson & Pierpont knew what they were doing.
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Peng Huiguo » November 21st, 2019, 2:48 pm

Incidentally I find that diminishing μετ᾽ αὐτῶν... αὐτῶν... [empty] delightful.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Cataphoric use of Personal Pronouns

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 21st, 2019, 6:55 pm

Peng Huiguo wrote:
November 21st, 2019, 2:14 pm
Jean, if you can get over the notion that the scribes and pharisees would not join a party thrown by a tax-collector, the anaphoric use of αὐτῶν here reads more naturally than the cataphoric one, don't you think? The greek genitive case doesn't always map to the english "of". I actually prefer RP's version to NA28's. It wasn't a text critical mistake; Robinson & Pierpont knew what they were doing.
Text critical "mistake" was never claimed -- it is a text critical issue, however. In either case, αὐτῶν is possessive, and contextually the antecedent must be Φαρισαῖοι. Incidentally, as a in illustration of some of the text critical issues.



και
εγογγυζον οι φαρι
σαιοι και οι γραμ
ματεις προς τους
μαθητας αυτου


International Greek New Testament Project (IGNTP). (2012). Codex Sinaiticus: Septuagint and New Testament (Lk 5:30). Cambridge, UK: The Codex Sinaiticus Project Board.

No αὐτῶν. Similarly Codex Bezae:

και οι
φαρισαιοι και οι γραμματεις εγονγυζον 5
προς τους μαθητας αυτου


Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis: Greek Transcriptions. (2012). (Lk 5:30). International Greek New Testament Project (IGNTP).

Now that solves the problem neatly! But the omission in some manuscripts and the differing word order suggest to me early problems with the text, although the reading of our critical editions has a great deal of support.
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