Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
RandallButh
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by RandallButh » November 16th, 2014, 1:36 pm

Yes, they kept the terms straight in class.

Maybe ask them again in five years.

MAubrey
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by MAubrey » November 16th, 2014, 2:41 pm

RandallButh wrote:Yes, they kept the terms straight in class.

Maybe ask them again in five years.
I'm doing fine 5 years on.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

RandallButh
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by RandallButh » November 16th, 2014, 4:54 pm

Michael, you live and breathe linguistics, I'm talking about the student who learns the concepts and then is out of touch for a goodly season. Will they remember which features go with "achievement" and which with "accomplishment"? Well, against my own argument, I do have to use these terms from time to time, I just pray that they communicate with audiences next week at ETS/SBL.

It is also why I don't think that "they" should call λαμβάνειν a "present" infinitive. Because it isn't.

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by Stephen Carlson » November 16th, 2014, 5:01 pm

TimNelson wrote:Sorry. The place I first ran across the whole question of verbal aspect was in a work which also discussed essives, namely, Waltke and O'Connor's work on Hebrew Syntax. My understanding is that, according to the WOC (Waltke/O'Connor) use of the terms, an essive is a temporary state (ie. "Bob is being silly") as opposed to a permanent state (ie. "Bob is silly"). With apologies to Bob too :).
Gotcha. Though I'm surprised "essive" was used for this, as it has different meanings, and the citation you helpfully gave in another post only has "stative."
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by Stephen Carlson » November 16th, 2014, 5:07 pm

RandallButh wrote:Yes, 'accomplishment' and 'achievement' are better than Latin,
but they are also synonyms is plain-vanilla English, so something better would help people keep them apart and not need to redefine/reexplain them everytime a discussion on them arises.

Maybe one could be called an 'incremental goal' (search for) and the other an 'actualization' (find).
Yes, accomplishment and achievement bug me too for the same reasons. Sometimes I wish to propose something different, but I'm afraid we'd end up in the situation illustrated in his comic:

Image
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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MAubrey
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by MAubrey » November 16th, 2014, 5:37 pm

RandallButh wrote:Michael, you live and breathe linguistics, I'm talking about the student who learns the concepts and then is out of touch for a goodly season.

Well, I think that's the difference. Most of the students I have lectured are either headed toward SIL or have returned from the field for graduate studies. Granted, not all of them are going to descriptive linguistics. Some will do literacy. Some will focus more on translation. Some will work on language survey work. But it's a very different context than what you encounter at the Biblical Language Center. The greatest frustration for many of them is that fact that the textbooks they're using when they take introductory Greek & Hebrew and exegesis class is that they're forced into learning an entirely new set of terminology that has little in common with what they've already spent two to three semesters already learning. So right now, that's my biggest priority: working with the school for creating relevant coursework for Greek grammar & exegesis that takes what they already know as a starting work. I have a syllabus proposal submitted. Hopefully, in the next year or two it will become a reality.
RandallButh wrote:It is also why I don't think that "they" should call λαμβάνειν a "present" infinitive. Because it isn't.
I back you on that 100%.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

George F Somsel
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by George F Somsel » November 17th, 2014, 3:55 am

Carl Conrad wrote
It really is important in these discussions to clarify the meanings of words that most of us have never seen before and that are being used in a sense at which we lesser mortals have to make the best educated guess we can.
Whatever anyone else says, you are not a "lesser mortal." The original poster may have been referencing an earlier version of Waltke and O'Connor since I do not find "essive" in my copy but rather "fientive" which you suggested might be more easily understood.
george
gfsomsel



… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



- Jan Hus

TimNelson
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by TimNelson » November 17th, 2014, 4:24 am

Just to clarify:
a) I suspect that essive didn't come from WOC; I had two sets of notes next to each other, and one set was derived from WOC, and the other was derived partly from WOC and partly from something I found on the Internet at some point; I think "essive" came from the Internet, and I was confused when I attributed it to WOC.
b) WOC use "stative" and "fientive", but they use "fientive" to refer to [-state] verbs (Sihler calls these "eventive" verbs in his New Comparative Grammar). This is different than an essive. An essive is a [+state] verb (just like a stative), but is also [+telic], in that the state will presumably end sometime.

But I agree that Carl is no mere mortal :).
--
Tim Nelson
B. Sc. (Computer Science), M. Div. Looking for work (in computing or language-related jobs).

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by Stephen Carlson » November 17th, 2014, 5:11 am

TimNelson wrote:a) I suspect that essive didn't come from WOC; I had two sets of notes next to each other, and one set was derived from WOC, and the other was derived partly from WOC and partly from something I found on the Internet at some point; I think "essive" came from the Internet, and I was confused when I attributed it to WOC.
Well, I think that clears up the mystery of essive, though it dead-ends rather unhelpfully to "found on the Internet." That said, I don't recommend the term: it is at best rare if not idiosyncratic, and it is not really intuitive to those not familiar with the label but familiar with the concept. "Temporary state" is probably fine. It could be worse; at least you're not calling it "pofective."
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Verb catalog - lexical aspect

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 17th, 2014, 6:55 am

Just a couple of comments on this discussion:

1) I know exactly how Carl feels. I took linguistics courses as both an undergraduate and graduate student, and even had a bit of exposure in seminary, and I still have to look stuff up when you guys get technical. It makes me glad that you don't have to be an expert in linguistics to learn how to use a language.

2) Achievement and accomplishment both derive from Latin, so there!
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

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