Lk.22:2b Fear them, what they would do to them or just do?

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Re: Lk.22:2b Fear them, what they would do to them or just d

Postby Stephen Hughes » September 20th, 2013, 11:44 pm

Vasile Stancu wrote:they needed to devise some 'method' (τὸ πῶς...) to accomplish that [=ἀνελεῖν αὐτόν]

I agree with you on this point. It seems that in the initial arrest stage they needed the people to be out of the way.
Lk.22:1-6 RP wrote:Ἤγγιζεν δὲ ἡ ἑορτὴ τῶν ἀζύμων, ἡ λεγομένη Πάσχα. 2 Καὶ ἐζήτουν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς τὸ πῶς ἀνέλωσιν αὐτόν· ἐφοβοῦντο γὰρ τὸν λαόν.
3 Εἰσῆλθεν δὲ Σατανᾶς εἰς Ἰούδαν τὸν ἐπικαλούμενον (NA/UBS: καλούμενον) Ἰσκαριώτην, ὄντα ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν δώδεκα.4 Καὶ ἀπελθὼν συνελάλησεν τοῖς ἀρχιερεῦσιν καὶ στρατηγοῖς τὸ πῶς αὐτὸν παραδῷ αὐτοῖς (NA/UBS: αὐτοῖς παραδῷ αὐτόν). 5 Καὶ ἐχάρησαν, καὶ συνέθεντο αὐτῷ ἀργύριον δοῦναι. 6 Καὶ ἐξωμολόγησεν, καὶ ἐζήτει εὐκαιρίαν τοῦ παραδοῦναι αὐτὸν αὐτοῖς ἄτερ ὄχλου (NA/UBS: ἄτερ ὄχλου αὐτοῖς).

Phrases introduced by τὸ πῶς occur twice here, and it seems that the aims of both Judas and the high priest and scholars (of the Jewish law) were very similar. The τὸ πῶς... is the way forward with their plan(s) that they wanted to get on with. The ἐφοβοῦντο γὰρ τὸν λαόν of verse two is paralleled with the ἄτερ ὄχλου (without the people (knowing / interfering) in the phrase ἐζήτει εὐκαιρίαν τοῦ παραδοῦναι αὐτὸν αὐτοῖς ἄτερ ὄχλου in verse 6.

Vasile Stancu wrote:and generate thus the public perception that their action was a legitimate one.

I'm not sure what you mean by "generate ... the public perception".

I read that as they wanted to not allow the populace to have any knowledge of the arrest because it was not legitimate. Does anyone have an idea of whether the arrest was a legitimate one under Jewish / Roman law?
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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Re: Lk.22:2b Fear them, what they would do to them or just d

Postby cwconrad » September 21st, 2013, 9:13 am

Vasile Stancu wrote:It seems to me that the τὸ πῶς construction is key to understanding the matter, in that the high priests' and scholars' simply ἀνελεῖν αὐτόν (which they felt they needed to do) would naturally generate a strong and immediate negative reaction of the λαός, so they needed to devise some 'method' (τὸ πῶς...) to accomplish that, and generate thus the public perception that their action was a legitimate one.


I continue to believe that Luke has constructed his formulation of the arrest narrative on the basis of the Marcan account (Mk 14:1-2, 10-11), and that Luke understands the sense of ἐφοβοῦντο τὸν λάον in the same manner as Mark.

As Mark is wont to do, he has created what I call a "sandwich" narrative here, or a "triptych" enclosing the anointment pericope between the two parts of the "plot" pericope:

GMk wrote:Mark 14:1 Ἦν δὲ τὸ πάσχα καὶ τὰ ἄζυμα μετὰ δύο ἡμέρας. καὶ ἐζήτουν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς πῶς αὐτὸν ἐν δόλῳ κρατήσαντες ἀποκτείνωσιν· 2 ἔλεγον γάρ· μὴ ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ, μήποτε ἔσται θόρυβος τοῦ λαοῦ.

Mark 14:10 Καὶ Ἰούδας Ἰσκαριὼθ ὁ εἷς τῶν δώδεκα ἀπῆλθεν πρὸς τοὺς ἀρχιερεῖς ἵνα αὐτὸν παραδοῖ αὐτοῖς. 11 οἱ δὲ ἀκούσαντες ἐχάρησαν καὶ ἐπηγγείλαντο αὐτῷ ἀργύριον δοῦναι. καὶ ἐζήτει πῶς αὐτὸν εὐκαίρως παραδοῖ.


Note the usage of the verb ζητεῖν with the πῶς subjunctive (indirect question) complements. Note too the adverbial elements, ἐν δόλῳ κρατήσαντες and εὐκαίρως in the two clauses respectively. The objective of οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς is to arrest and execute Jesus without arousing a θόρυβος τοῦ λαοῦ.

Luke's narrative brings into a sequential narrative the two parts of the Marcan one.

GLk wrote:Luke 22:1 Ἤγγιζεν δὲ ἡ ἑορτὴ τῶν ἀζύμων ἡ λεγομένη πάσχα. 2 καὶ ἐζήτουν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς τὸ πῶς ἀνέλωσιν αὐτόν, ἐφοβοῦντο γὰρ τὸν λαόν.

Luke 22:3 Εἰσῆλθεν δὲ σατανᾶς εἰς Ἰούδαν τὸν καλούμενον Ἰσκαριώτην, ὄντα ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν δώδεκα· 4 καὶ ἀπελθὼν συνελάλησεν τοῖς ἀρχιερεῦσιν καὶ στρατηγοῖς τὸ πῶς αὐτοῖς παραδῷ αὐτόν. 5 καὶ ἐχάρησαν καὶ συνέθεντο αὐτῷ ἀργύριον δοῦναι. 6 καὶ ἐξωμολόγησεν, καὶ ἐζήτει εὐκαιρίαν τοῦ παραδοῦναι αὐτὸν ἄτερ ὄχλου αὐτοῖς.


Luke has retained the substance of the Marcan account of the meshing together of what the Temple authorities sought and what Judas sought. But he has also made explicit what was only implicit in Mark's εὐκαίρως παραδοῖ (14:11); the εὐκαιρία is spelled out as involving a betrayal ἄτερ ὄχλου. The arrest is to be carried out unbeknownst to the λάος and the execution of Jesus is to be carried out before the Passover festival begins.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
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