Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
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Wes Wood
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Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by Wes Wood » November 16th, 2013, 12:49 am

First off, I apologize for not posting the words in Greek; I do not know how to do so on my phone. Do either of these verbs refer to a particular stage of the drinking process? I have access to BDAG, but, except to specify what one is getting drunk with, I don't understand why one would be used over the other. My related question-is there any evidence that methusko as a -sko verb retains a residual inchoative sense? If you could suggest any articles that would help me understand these terms better, I would appreciate it. My only interest is in using these words properly in composition.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 16th, 2013, 2:15 am

Wes Wood wrote:Do either of these verbs refer to a particular stage of the drinking process?
μεθύσκω to get drunk, μεθύσκομαι (οἴνῳ) to get oneself drunk (on wine - dative not accusative), μεθύω to be drunk,

Other words you might find useful for composition are:
μέθυσος someone who is drunk, κῶμος drinking party (where the aim is to be drunk), συμπόσιον drinking party (where one can socialise and chat), οἶνος (wine / beer), τὸ ἐκ κριθῶν μέθυ (beer), ὕδωρ (water), οἰνοπότης (someone fond? of wine), σίκερα strong drink (distilled?), πίνω (water or alcohol), ποτίζω give sb a drink (I've found no evidence that this could be for anything except water), τὸ δίψος thrist, διψάω to thirst (I've always assumed that this (and δός μοι πιεῖν - give me a drink) referred only to water and if you wanted to drink wine perhaps it would be οἶνον θέλω πιεῖν / πεῖν, is my assumption right?), κεράννυμι mix (the wine with water), κρατήρ mixing bowl (for wine and water), ἄκρατος unmixed (wine), ποτήριον cup, πόμα drink
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by cwconrad » November 16th, 2013, 7:30 am

Wes Wood wrote:First off, I apologize for not posting the words in Greek; I do not know how to do so on my phone. Do either of these verbs refer to a particular stage of the drinking process? I have access to BDAG, but, except to specify what one is getting drunk with, I don't understand why one would be used over the other. My related question-is there any evidence that methusko as a -sko verb retains a residual inchoative sense? If you could suggest any articles that would help me understand these terms better, I would appreciate it. My only interest is in using these words properly in composition.
Stephen has given you a classroom lecture on the Greek vocabulary of social (and unsocial) drinking. I think, however, he has not discussed the morphology question as such. μεθύσκω and μεθύω are obviously both denominative verbs based upon the noun μέθυ, wine or mead (in fact, etymologically akin to English 'mead'). μεθύσκω uses the verb formative element -σκ- that appears in several other verbs of process or progressive development; they're called "inchoative" or "inceptive." There's a useful account in Smyth, §§526-527. Among these are several fairly common verbs such as γηράσκω (grow old), διδάσκω (instruct), γιγνώσκω (get to know), βόσκω (pasture herd animals), and a whole slew of others. The same element appears in Latin verbs as -sc- and in many English verbs derived from such Latin verbs as "coalesce," "evanesce", etc.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

RandallButh
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Re: Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by RandallButh » November 17th, 2013, 2:26 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:Do either of these verbs refer to a particular stage of the drinking process?
μεθύσκω to get drunk, μεθύσκομαι (οἴνῳ) to get oneself drunk (on wine - dative not accusative), μεθύω to be drunk,

Other words you might find useful for composition are:
μέθυσος someone who is drunk, κῶμος drinking party (where the aim is to be drunk), συμπόσιον drinking party (where one can socialise and chat), οἶνος (wine / beer), τὸ ἐκ κριθῶν μέθυ (beer), ὕδωρ (water), οἰνοπότης (someone fond? of wine), σίκερα strong drink (distilled?), πίνω (water or alcohol), ποτίζω give sb a drink (I've found no evidence that this could be for anything except water), τὸ δίψος thrist, διψάω to thirst (I've always assumed that this (and δός μοι πιεῖν - give me a drink) referred only to water and if you wanted to drink wine perhaps it would be οἶνον θέλω πιεῖν / πεῖν, is my assumption right?), κεράννυμι mix (the wine with water), κρατήρ mixing bowl (for wine and water), ἄκρατος unmixed (wine), ποτήριον cup, πόμα drink

a couple of clarifications:

σίκερα is not a distilled drink, which was a post-Christian development that didn't exist in ancient Israel and Mediterranean, in fact sikera is a loan word from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Akkadian that meant 'beer'.

the Greek word for 'beer' was ὁ ζῦθος, but they were more of a wine culture.

ζῦθος shows up in the papyri and made it into the LXX at Isaiah 19.10, though the Hebrew MT is different. This is a practical word for intensive summer Greek classes.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 21st, 2013, 10:23 am

RandallButh wrote:a couple of clarifications
Thanks. My knowledge of Greek is richer for your clarification. And if you have time I would benefit from another...

As you might have noticed, the key word that is missing from my working list is "pour". My intuitive understanding is that ἐκχύννω is for liquid leaving the vessel or pouring down without a specific reseptacle to go to, and that χύννω is the liquid actually "in flight" (so to speak). That's only my gut, so I didn't want to include it in the first list.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

RandallButh
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Re: Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by RandallButh » November 21st, 2013, 10:55 am

Well, the 'new' forms of -χύννειν existed, but the older forms of -χέαι (ἀόριστος) -χεῖν (παρατατική) also existed.
I probably don't have to explain to you why the 'predicable' form χέσαι was not used, being already in use.

Of course, as you've said, the verb tended to be used with prefixes, depending on a viewpoint of source, goal, or direction.
ἐκχέαι, εἰσχέαι.
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Mark Lightman
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Re: Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by Mark Lightman » January 13th, 2014, 3:14 pm

RandallButh wrote:Well, the 'new' forms of -χύννειν existed, but the older forms of -χέαι (ἀόριστος) -χεῖν (παρατατική) also existed.
I probably don't have to explain to you why the 'predicable' form χέσαι was not used, being already in use.
ναί, φίλε, τὸ χέζειν λέγεις. ἔγωγε φιλῶ τὸ μὲν ῥῆμα, τὸ δὲ αὐτό. οἶδας οὖν τοῦτο τὸ λόγιον?
δεῖ ἢ χέσαι ἢ τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἀφιέναι.


ἑρμηνευόμενον τοῦτο σημαίνει:
ἢ πίθι ἢ ἄπιθι.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Morphology and word meaning methusko vs. methuo

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 13th, 2014, 5:59 pm

Σοφώτατε Φωσφόρε, καλὼς ἀπενόστησας, καὶ μετὰ τοιοῦτον χρόνον! Οὐκ οἶδα τι ἐστοχάζετο ὁ Ἰωάνης γράφων τὸ χέσαι. ἐπαίδευσας δὲ τὸν σκοτεινόν μου νοῦν διὰ τὴν σύνεσίν σου.

Ὁμογάλακτα, ἀπὸ νῦν καὶ εἰς ἀΐδιον, σπεύσον βελτιόνως, πλέον καὶ πολλάκις γράψαι.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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