Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
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Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 219
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by Peter Streitenberger » June 22nd, 2014, 9:40 am

Dear friends,

I wonder what the difference between the readings in Joh 14,19 and other places could point to, here scribes altered the voice (Active vs. Medium) of ZAW:

ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ὁ κόσμος με οὐκέτι θεωρεῖ, ὑμεῖς δὲ θεωρεῖτέ με, ὅτι ἐγὼ ζῶ καὶ ὑμεῖς ζήσετε. (NA with Active)

OR

Ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ὁ κόσμος με οὐκέτι θεωρεῖ, ὑμεῖς δὲ θεωρεῖτέ με· ὅτι ἐγὼ ζῶ, καὶ ὑμεῖς ζήσεσθε. (Byz with Middle)

Is there a significant difference between Acitve and Middle of ZAW. I think of this Quote by Michael Syncellus in "Περὶ τῆς τοῦ λόγου συντάξεως" refering to this issue (Chap 87):

Διὰ τί δὲ εἴρηται «καὶ εἰς παθητικὴν μεταβαίνει διάθεσιν»; Ἐπειδὴ τὰ οὐδέτερα ῥήματα καὶ κατὰ φωνὴν μὲν ἐνεργητικά, σημαινομένῳ δὲ παθητικά, εἰς φωνὴν παθητικὴν οὐ μεταβαίνει· οὐ γὰρ λέγομεν «ζῶμαι», οὔτε «πλουτοῦμαι», οὔτε «ὀφθαλμιῶμαι», οὔτε «πάσχομαι», ἀλλὰ μόνον «ζῶ» καὶ «πλουτῶ», καὶ «ὀφθαλμιῶ» καὶ «πάσχω».

I'm I right that middle ZAW goes into the passive direction, e.g. "become alive" or am I misinterpreting this?

Thanks for all help or suggestions !
Yours
Peter, Germany
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cwconrad
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Re: Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by cwconrad » June 22nd, 2014, 11:24 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Dear friends,

I wonder what the difference between the readings in Joh 14,19 and other places could point to, here scribes altered the voice (Active vs. Medium) of ZAW:

ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ὁ κόσμος με οὐκέτι θεωρεῖ, ὑμεῖς δὲ θεωρεῖτέ με, ὅτι ἐγὼ ζῶ καὶ ὑμεῖς ζήσετε. (NA with Active)

OR

Ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ὁ κόσμος με οὐκέτι θεωρεῖ, ὑμεῖς δὲ θεωρεῖτέ με· ὅτι ἐγὼ ζῶ, καὶ ὑμεῖς ζήσεσθε. (Byz with Middle)

Is there a significant difference between Acitve and Middle of ZAW. I think of this Quote by Michael Syncellus in "Περὶ τῆς τοῦ λόγου συντάξεως" refering to this issue (Chap 87):

Διὰ τί δὲ εἴρηται «καὶ εἰς παθητικὴν μεταβαίνει διάθεσιν»; Ἐπειδὴ τὰ οὐδέτερα ῥήματα καὶ κατὰ φωνὴν μὲν ἐνεργητικά, σημαινομένῳ δὲ παθητικά, εἰς φωνὴν παθητικὴν οὐ μεταβαίνει· οὐ γὰρ λέγομεν «ζῶμαι», οὔτε «πλουτοῦμαι», οὔτε «ὀφθαλμιῶμαι», οὔτε «πάσχομαι», ἀλλὰ μόνον «ζῶ» καὶ «πλουτῶ», καὶ «ὀφθαλμιῶ» καὶ «πάσχω».

I'm I right that middle ZAW goes into the passive direction, e.g. "become alive" or am I misinterpreting this?

Thanks for all help or suggestions !
Yours
Peter, Germany
Peter, I marvel that you've consulted Michael Syncellus on this question but apparently haven't looked at BDAG, s.v. [ζάω], LSJ, s.v. ζῶ, or BDF(§77). What do you think the difference between ζήσετε and ζήσεσθε might be?
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 219
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by Peter Streitenberger » June 23rd, 2014, 6:43 am

Peter, I marvel that you've consulted Michael Syncellus on this question but apparently haven't looked at BDAG, s.v. [ζάω], LSJ, s.v. ζῶ, or BDF(§77). What do you think the difference between ζήσετε and ζήσεσθε might be?
Dear Carl,
I haven't found much in the BDAG and BDF an the exact difference between Active and middle voice and I'm not sure if I can explain the quote of Syncellus in the right way. So I just guess and that may or may not right - that the middle goes in the passvie direction, as getting alive or become alive. But I simply don't know.
Yours
Peter
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 23rd, 2014, 7:16 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Dear friends,

I wonder what the difference between the readings in Joh 14,19 and other places could point to, here scribes altered the voice (Active vs. Medium) of ZAW:

ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ὁ κόσμος με οὐκέτι θεωρεῖ, ὑμεῖς δὲ θεωρεῖτέ με, ὅτι ἐγὼ ζῶ καὶ ὑμεῖς ζήσετε. (NA with Active)

OR

Ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ὁ κόσμος με οὐκέτι θεωρεῖ, ὑμεῖς δὲ θεωρεῖτέ με· ὅτι ἐγὼ ζῶ, καὶ ὑμεῖς ζήσεσθε. (Byz with Middle)

Is there a significant difference between Acitve and Middle of ZAW. I think of this Quote by Michael Syncellus in "Περὶ τῆς τοῦ λόγου συντάξεως" refering to this issue (Chap 87):

Διὰ τί δὲ εἴρηται «καὶ εἰς παθητικὴν μεταβαίνει διάθεσιν»; Ἐπειδὴ τὰ οὐδέτερα ῥήματα καὶ κατὰ φωνὴν μὲν ἐνεργητικά, σημαινομένῳ δὲ παθητικά, εἰς φωνὴν παθητικὴν οὐ μεταβαίνει· οὐ γὰρ λέγομεν «ζῶμαι», οὔτε «πλουτοῦμαι», οὔτε «ὀφθαλμιῶμαι», οὔτε «πάσχομαι», ἀλλὰ μόνον «ζῶ» καὶ «πλουτῶ», καὶ «ὀφθαλμιῶ» καὶ «πάσχω».

I'm I right that middle ZAW goes into the passive direction, e.g. "become alive" or am I misinterpreting this?

Thanks for all help or suggestions !
Yours
Peter, Germany
Peter, do follow Carl's suggestion, it's a good one. However, did you notice that the quotation from Michael Syncellus deals with ἡ παθητικὴ διαθέσις and not ἡ μέση?
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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cwconrad
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Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
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Re: Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by cwconrad » June 23rd, 2014, 11:19 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:...
Is there a significant difference between Acitve and Middle of ZAW. I think of this Quote by Michael Syncellus in "Περὶ τῆς τοῦ λόγου συντάξεως" refering to this issue (Chap 87):

Διὰ τί δὲ εἴρηται «καὶ εἰς παθητικὴν μεταβαίνει διάθεσιν»; Ἐπειδὴ τὰ οὐδέτερα ῥήματα καὶ κατὰ φωνὴν μὲν ἐνεργητικά, σημαινομένῳ δὲ παθητικά, εἰς φωνὴν παθητικὴν οὐ μεταβαίνει· οὐ γὰρ λέγομεν «ζῶμαι», οὔτε «πλουτοῦμαι», οὔτε «ὀφθαλμιῶμαι», οὔτε «πάσχομαι», ἀλλὰ μόνον «ζῶ» καὶ «πλουτῶ», καὶ «ὀφθαλμιῶ» καὶ «πάσχω».

Am I right that middle ZAW goes into the passive direction, e.g. "become alive" or am I misinterpreting this?
What Michael Syncellus means to say is unclear to me; he' s not using the term "middle" at all; I suspect that he's using ἐνεργητικά and παθητικά to refer to "active" forms and "middle-passive" forms. He does note rightly that πάσχω has an "active" form even if it has a "middle-passive" meaning -- and we never write πάσχομαι.

But -- to the point of the question: BDAG, LSJ and BDF §77 as well as AT Robertson p 356, all note that both active and middle future forms of ζῶ appear in the GNT and both also appeared in Attic. BDF says that ζήσομαι is more common.

I don't think there's an ounce of difference in meaning between ζήσω and ζήσομαι. If we take the view that middle-passive forms are marked for subject-affectedness whiled active forms are unmarked (for subject-affectedness), then we may say that subject-affectedness may be inherent in the verb ζῆν but that marked forms of the verb are not common until the later period.

By way of speculation, I'll suggest that this is a verb of natural process comparable to εἶναι and γίνεσθαι. While γίνεσθαι has always had the middle-passive form (aorists in γενηθῆναι seem to be gaining ground on the older aorists in γενέσθαι in the NT Koine era), εἶναι has ever since the Homeric epics had a future ἐσ(σ)εσθαι; in Hellenistic usage middle forms like ἤμην are becoming more common, while still later even the present tense forms shift into the middle: εἶμαι.

But that, I repeat, is speculation. I'm content to think that ζήσω and ζήσομαι are concurrent forms in the NT Koine era and that there's not an ounce of difference in meaning between the two forms.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 219
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by Peter Streitenberger » June 23rd, 2014, 11:30 am

Thanks Carl,

I was very unsure by myself - so your clear statment helps me a lot. I Thanks you. The passage of the certain author was just because he referred to Medium or Active of ZAW.
Thanks again for this time !
Yours
Peter
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Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 23rd, 2014, 12:30 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Thanks Carl,

I was very unsure by myself - so your clear statment helps me a lot. I Thanks you. The passage of the certain author was just because he referred to Medium or Active of ZAW.
Thanks again for this time !
Yours
Peter
Did you find Syncellus online? I tried, but couldn't do so (it so often helps to look at quotes in the broader context). If so, could you provide a link? I have a special fondness for ancient grammarians (and even Byzantine guys) discussing their language... :ugeek:
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 219
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Difference between Active or Medium of ZAW (live)

Post by Peter Streitenberger » June 24th, 2014, 4:15 am

Dear Barry,

the source text for the TLG, where the text is from:
D. Donnet, Le traité de la construction de la phrase de Michel le Syncelle de Jérusalem [Etudes de philologie, d'archéologie et d'histoire anciennes 22. Brussels: Institut historique Belge de Rome, 1982]: 157-419.
In the TLG threre are lots of interesting greek grammars. As you show interest, Barry, I print all the chapter of this issue:

Διὰ τί δὲ εἴρηται «καὶ εἰς παθητικὴν μεταβαίνει διάθεσιν»; Ἐπειδὴ τὰ οὐδέτερα ῥήματα καὶ κατὰ φωνὴν μὲν ἐνεργητικά, σημαινομένῳ δὲ παθητικά, εἰς φωνὴν παθητικὴν οὐ μεταβαίνει· οὐ γὰρ λέγομεν «ζῶμαι», οὔτε «πλουτοῦμαι», οὔτε «ὀφθαλμιῶμαι», οὔτε «πάσχομαι», ἀλλὰ μόνον «ζῶ» καὶ «πλουτῶ», καὶ «ὀφθαλμιῶ» καὶ «πάσχω». Τὰ δὲ παθητικὰ ῥήματα, ἡνίκα μὲν δηλοῦν ἐθέλει τὸν πάσχοντα τόπον, πρὸς αἰτιατικὴν συντάσσεται οἷον «ὀδυνῶμαι τὴν κεφαλήν, τέρπομαι τὴν φρένα,τέτρωμαι τὴν χεῖρα, πάσχω τὸν πόδα»· 88. ἡνίκα δὲ τὸ ὄργανον ᾧτινι τὸ (645) πάθος ἐνήργηται, πρὸς δοτικήν, οἷον «ἐτύφθη τῇ μάστιγι, ἐπλήγη τῷ ξίφει»·τοῦτο δὲ ἐπὶ τῶν ἐνεργητικῶν φυλάττεται, οἷον «Διομήδης ἔτρωσε τῷ δόρατι τὸν Πάνδαρον».

The first part was interesting for me and if I understand Syncellus right he states: "Why does one say "the voices go over even to the passiv (of verbs, must be "with no direct action" or "intransitive verbs")": Because the words with both voices and according to the speech active, can denote a passiv verb, according to speech it doesn't change to medium/passv. We don't say «ζῶμαι», or «πλουτοῦμαι», or «ὀφθαλμιῶμαι», or «πάσχομαι», but only «ζῶ» and «πλουτῶ»,.
I could be terrible wrong with my interpretation - any further help is aprreciated.
Yours Peter
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