ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τινι = "bring something"?

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Stephen Carlson
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ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τινι = "bring something"?

Post by Stephen Carlson » October 7th, 2014, 11:40 pm

Rudolf Bultmann claims that ἔρχεσθαι + ἐν is an idiom meaning "to bring," citing Rom 15:29, 32, 1 Cor 4:21, and 2 Cor 2:1 plus a 1936 monograph on joy in the NT by E. G. Gulin. I don't see this meaning, however, in BDAG or LSJM, so I'm wondering if it's legit.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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RandallButh
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Re: ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τινι = "bring something"?

Post by RandallButh » October 8th, 2014, 1:34 am

It's standard Arabic. Didn't know he knew that.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τινι = "bring something"?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 8th, 2014, 9:18 am

RandallButh wrote:It's standard Arabic. Didn't know he knew that.
Just having a quick look at the passages cited, it certainly doesn't have to mean that, and in fact I think would violate the sense, so I'm very suspicious that it's not legit.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τινι = "bring something"?

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 8th, 2014, 1:59 pm

Some of the other places that ἐν is used with ἔρχεσθαι would radically change their meaning with that understanding... Here are the first three:
Matthew 7:15 wrote:Προσέχετε δὲ ἀπὸ τῶν ψευδοπροφητῶν, οἵτινες ἔρχονται πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν ἐνδύμασιν προβάτων, ἔσωθεν δέ εἰσιν λύκοι ἅρπαγες.
"Beware of false prophets who come to you bringing sheep's clothing, but inwardly that are ravening wolves."
They are in the clothing or the clothing is in their arms?
Matthew 14:33 wrote:οἱ δὲ ἐν τῷ πλοίῳ ἐλθόντες προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ, λέγοντες, Ἀληθῶς θεοῦ υἱὸς εἶ.
"Those who were bringing the boat .."
People carried by the boat or boat carried by the people?
Matthew 16:27 wrote:Μέλλει γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων αὐτοῦ, καὶ τότε ἀποδώσει ἑκάστῳ κατὰ τὴν πρᾶξιν αὐτοῦ.
"... bringing his father's glory ... "
The glory envelops him, or he contains the glory?


The verses listed with my comments are:
Romans 15:29 wrote:Οἶδα δὲ ὅτι ἐρχόμενος πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν πληρώματι εὐλογίας τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τοῦ χριστοῦ ἐλεύσομαι.
Surrounding or surrounded by?
Romans 15:32 wrote:ἵνα ἐν χαρᾷ ἔλθω πρὸς ὑμᾶς διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ, καὶ συναναπαύσωμαι ὑμῖν.
Enveloped in or full of?
1 Corinthians 4:21 wrote:Ἐν ῥάβδῳ ἔλθω πρὸς ὑμᾶς, ἢ ἐν ἀγάπῃ πνεύματί τε πρᾳότητος;
Is the rod in my hand or am I thinking of the idea of punishment? Surrounded by or containing love and a humble spirit?
2 Corinthinas 2:1 wrote:τὸ μὴ πάλιν ἐν λύπῃ πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐλθεῖν.
Surrounded by sorrow or containing sorrow?
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τινι = "bring something"?

Post by Stephen Carlson » October 15th, 2014, 12:30 am

RandallButh wrote:It's standard Arabic. Didn't know he knew that.
Bultmann only cites Gulin's thesis for that point. Ralph Martin's commentary indicates that it is also an Aramaic idiom:
the phrase, ἐλθεῖν ἐν corresponds to the Aramaic verb אתא ב, ʾatāʾ b(e), “to come with,” “to cause,” “to bring”
Unfortunately, there is no citation and, given the 3000-year history of Aramaic, it is difficult to evaluate.
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RandallButh
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Re: ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τινι = "bring something"?

Post by RandallButh » October 15th, 2014, 5:16 am

For a little more background, I mentioned Arabic more 'tongue in cheek', not because I think that it is real evidence for a first century document or that Bultmann knew Arabic. He may have, but it is irrelevant. However, Arabic does show a natural semantic linkage.

I mentioned Arabic because it is a common idiom in Arabic, so common that in colloquial Arabic 'come with' is fused into its own verb.
Thus, a verb suffix in colloquial Arabic can be added after the etymological "b" rather than the verb itself:
classical ji'tu b- "I came with"="I brought",
colloquial jibtu "I brought."
There is a morphological incentive for this in Arabic. Arabic doesn't like to use some "af`ala" (causative) formations (=Heb hif`il, Aram af`el) because they are sometimes homonymic. Arabic does not use an af`al word of this root ji'. Colloquial Arabic has greatly restricted af`ala words.

Hebrew knows the idiom "come with" as a synonym of "brought". For example, Psalm 66:13 "I will come with whole burnt offerings" is almost a paraphrase to "I will bring whole burnt offerings." however, Hebrew likes to use the word הביא "he brought" rather than -בא ב "came with." Actually, in Hebrew one may think of -לבוא ב as a kind of adverbial, "he came by means of whole burnt offerings." This is the same thing in Aramaic, that uses both אתה "he came" and a causative vocabulary formation איתיי "he brought," commonly. When Aramaic uses "came with" it tends to be adverbial, "by means of, in the manner of" rather than simply "brought."
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