Emotive words in Koine Greek

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
Stephen Hughes
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Emotive words in Koine Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes »

RandallButh wrote:It is always useful to reconstruct and imagine how little kids would go about unconsciously deciphering and learning a language.
Cognitively If adults were left to their own devices to learn a language, in some cases, they may pick up the negative strongly emotional words first, followed by the necessary and involuntary bodily functions, then the voluntary ones and so on into the different topics of daily living and the world immediately around them and then further afield.

As an indication of what the topics might be, similar to what an adult might learn, we could hypothesise:
  • Lesson One Strong negative emotions Μωρέ! γαμήσου! σκάτα! ,
    Lesson Two Bodily Functions ἐσθίειν, πέρδομαι,
    Lesson Three The Household Environment (I) καθεύδειν, καθέζεσθαι, τράπεζα, κλίνη,
    Lesson Four Pets κύων, αἴλουρος, ἰχθύδια, τρέφειν,
    Lesson Five The Seaside σκάφη, ἄμμος (ἡ), κῦμα,
    Lesson Six Feelings and emotions μισεῖν,
    Lesson Seven Dispositions ἄστοργος, etc.
How many lessons would it take to get 10/10 on Daniel Streett's 2011 test of Basic Greek in that way? Perhaps a dozen, perhaps more or perhaps less. It would depend on the structure and content.

Would that be useful as a structure for learning? In some ways perhaps, it depends on the aims and time frame for learning.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
RandallButh
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Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by RandallButh »

In the Koine period they had other words for your first lesson.
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Referring to a person in a bad way - Μωρέ! is in the New Testament. Wishing terrible things on somebody is γαμήσου! in Modern Greek. It is a fossilised form from the old morphology expressing the middle or more probably passive meaning - in Modern morphology it might be να γαμήθεις, Expressng extreme displeasure at a situation could be σκάτα! Modern Greek has the accent shifted to σκατά!
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
RandallButh
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Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by RandallButh »

I guess I was thinking of words like βινεῖν and βδεῖν, phrases like φαγεῖν σκῶρ.
See Greek anthology, though φαγεῖν σκῶρ is Aristophanes.
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by Stephen Hughes »

RandallButh wrote:I guess I was thinking of ... phrases like φαγεῖν σκῶρ. ... though φαγεῖν σκῶρ is Aristophanes.
While the verbal phrase φαγεῖν σκῶρ and its nominal counterpart σκατόφαγος may be from an earlier period, there is an interesting "interplay" between σκατο- prefix and the LXX word ἐσχατόγηρος, ον during the Mediaeval (Byzantine) and later period.

In our Koine period ἐσχατόγηρος means "being in extreme old age".

The next little bit is parenthetical, and could be skipped:
The Wisdom of Sirach 41:2 (LXX and RSVCE) wrote:ὦ θάνατε, καλόν σου τὸ κρίμα ἐστὶν ἀνθρώπῳ ἐπιδεομένῳ καὶ ἐλασσουμένῳ ἰσχύι ἐσχατογήρῳ καὶ περισπωμένῳ περὶ πάντων καὶ ἀπειθοῦντι καὶ ἀπολωλεκότι ὑπομονήν.
O death, how welcome is your sentence to one who is in need and is failing in strength, very old and distracted over everything; to one who is contrary, and has lost his patience!

Just in case the number of datives in the phrase ἐλασσουμένῳ ἰσχύι ἐσχατογήρῳ is a little overwhelming, let me say that they relate to different things. The ἰσχύι is a dative of respect, and relates to the present participle ἐλασσουμένῳ (< ἐλασσόω as in John 3:30 Ἐκεῖνον δεῖ αὐξάνειν, ἐμὲ δὲ ἐλαττοῦσθαι), spelling out (in Sirach) in what way the one who is in old age (the adjective = fixed reference point) is diminishing (the participle = vaiability). In 42:8 ἐσχατογήρως κρινομένου πρὸς νέους, the adverbial is used to describe the circumstances under which the person is making a contention with the young (I'd like to think it was the "Who asked you anyway?"-situation of an ἀποκρίνομαι "compile and express one's thoughts back to somebody (or to a situation)", "reply", without the ἀπο- (cf. ἀποδίδωμι to give-back). Anyway back to the (side-topic of the side-)topic.


During the Mediaeval (Byzantine) period, the initial short vowel ἐ- was lost from the beginning of ἐσχατόγηρος "a very old man", leaving a pronunciation σχατόγηρος, which came to be pronounced as σκατόγερος. Those sound changes, helped no doubt by the fact that some very old people do behave in strange or annoying ways, resulted in a pejoration of its meaning. It is now used as a derogatory word for an old man. [G's translate doesn't currently include σκατόγερος in its database, but searching webpages will give results. (cf. the fem. σκατόγρια)]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by Stephen Hughes »

RandallButh wrote:In the Koine period they had other words for your first lesson.
Perhaps for the second - in the sequence of the language learning starting from stronger emotions and moving to the more settled - words like Δεῦρο! "Front and centre!", "Get here now!", "Stop (/put down) what you're doing, and come here!" (followed in intensity by Ἐλθέ!), or Pharaoh's Ἄπελθε (ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ) "Get out of my sight!", "Clear out!", "Get lost!" (Exodus 10:28) (followed in intensity by Ὕπαγε "Go!", "Walk (away) now!") are obviously a lot stronger than other less marked ways of expressing one's desire for the motion of others.

Are those the strongest possible expressions?

Do they occupy the most extreme position on the spectrum of intensity, like our English "Far cough!" does, or (short of a really strong word like γαμήσου where the logic of any particular action is no longer important), are they the strongest ways expression one's desire for another's motion?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
RandallButh
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Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by RandallButh »

short of a really strong word like γαμήσου
The common use of γαμῆσαι/γημεῖν in the NT tells me that the use of βινῆσαι in the jokes of the Anthology is the/an emotionally strong word. This conclusion might be supported by its lack in the LXX, Josephus, ktl. Hebrew had a vulgar word in the prophets but the LXX used euphemisms, as would the MT at a later period.
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by Stephen Hughes »

RandallButh wrote:
short of a really strong word like γαμήσου
The common use of γαμῆσαι/γημεῖν in the NT tells me that the use of βινῆσαι in the jokes of the Anthology is the/an emotionally strong word. This conclusion might be supported by its lack in the LXX, Josephus, ktl. Hebrew had a vulgar word in the prophets but the LXX used euphemisms, as would the MT at a later period.
A word that is too strong is hard to laugh at. Could it be a word at the level of a "quickie". The illicitness of the liason creates some tension that can be resolved by a punchline or resolution of a plot.

Could you share a quote or two from the Anthology. If that βινῆσαι is included in our vocabulary, that would more or less leave γαμῆσαι for legitimate marriage.

I think that limiting the vocabulary to γαμῆσαι probably produces a form of Christian exoticism - extendingThat being said, though, there is a question whether, when γαμῆσαι is used of re-marriage, or of Herod's relationship with his brother's wife were being protrayed in a positive or legitimate way. At least in the case of Herod's liason with his bother's wife (καὶ ἔδησεν αὐτὸν ἐν φυλακῇ, διὰ Ἡρῳδιάδα τὴν γυναῖκα Φιλίππου τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ αὐτοῦ, ὅτι αὐτὴν ἐγάμησεν.), what is talked about may not be legitimate.

The words of the relatively common πόρνη family seem to be quite strong too. The words are wider than a simple rational (end etymological) reading of πορνεύω might at first suggest. I think that its breadth of meaning is due to it being more emotional and adaptable to a variety of situations and activities, rather than just being limited to the more literal "visiting a pink house". Being as it is usually used in contexts of strong and frequent prohibition, it probably had a strong negative force (at least) within the context of the early church.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by Stephen Hughes »

It seems that some of my last post was lost, as sometimes happens. Here is sort of what I had written:

I think that limiting the vocabulary about is topic to γαμῆσαι probably produces a form of Christian exoticism - extending the range of vocabulary that we learn and discuss may balance things. By exoticism I mean that the world of the New Testament could become a world unrelated our own, or even its reality. By only studying vocabulary from a source that represents a number of very closely related world views, we can get the impression that Koine Greek is a more pure language than our somehow less pure English. While of course not attempting to bring Emil Zolaire to the world of the first century church, discussing and learning words that we ourselves (taking a decent standard as that of LXX translators as our own) might never use. Those words would still presumably have been known and understood by a range of speakers, including at least some of those listening to the New Testament

That being said . . .
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Acts 21:21 Counterintuitive complexity - διδάσκειν + 2 a

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

RandallButh wrote:Hebrew had a vulgar word in the prophets but the LXX used euphemisms, as would the MT at a later period.
Sorry to go off topic, but is this reflected in the qere/ktiv alternatives?
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