difference between

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
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Peter Streitenberger
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Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

difference between

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 28th, 2016, 9:01 am

Dear friends and colleagues,

I wonder what the difference between

a) Revelation 2:25 Πλὴν ὃ ἔχετε κρατήσατε, ἄχρι οὗ ἂν ἥξω
"But hold fast what you have till I come."

and

b) Revelation 20:3 καὶ ἔβαλεν αὐτὸν εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον, καὶ ἔκλεισεν καὶ ἐσφράγισεν ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ, ἵνα μὴ πλανᾷ ἔτι τὰ ἔθνη, ἄχρι τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη· καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα δεῖ αὐτὸν λυθῆναι μικρὸν χρόνον.
"and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

is.

What is the difference in meaning, if οὗ ἂν is present or not? Is it not possible to translate and render this two expressions?
Any help is highly regarded ....
Yours
Peter

MAubrey
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Re: difference between

Post by MAubrey » November 28th, 2016, 11:23 am

Well, οὗ ἂν isn't a unit. The unit is ἄχρι οὗ. But I'm not sure as to the difference between it and bare ἄχρι. There's not a lot of data to go by.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 199
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: difference between

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 28th, 2016, 12:44 pm

Dear Mike,

at least some new insights for me - thank you. There is also a variation of οὗ ἂν with opposite word order ἂν οὗ.

Well, after having googled in the TLG I've the impression that ἄχρι ἂν οὗ points to the duration till the endpoint, not the endpoint itself - so: "as long as" (German: so lange bis; Latin: donec) vs. "till" for simple ἄχρι would be an idea to discern these two phrases:

Vgl. Plutarchus, Questiones convivales 690.B,2: "διὸ καὶ πολὺν ζῶσιν ἔνιοι τῶν ἀποκαρτερούντων χρόνον, ἂν ὕδωρ μόνον λαμβάνωσιν, ἄχρι ἂν οὗ πᾶν ἐξικμασθῇ τὸ τρέφειν καὶ προστίθεσθαι τῷ σώματι δυνάμενον". Moreover, several men, when they have drunk nothing at all, but only washed themselves, all on a sudden are freed from a violent hunger, because the extrinsic moisture entering the pores makes the meat within more succulent and of a more nourishing nature, so that the heat and fury of the hunger declines and abates; and therefore a great many of those who have a mind to starve themselves to death live a long time only by drinking water; that is, as long as the siccity does not quite consume whatever may be united to and nourish the body." German (my try): "Daher leben auch eine große Anzahl derer, die im Sinn haben, zu verhungern, eine Zeit nur aufgrund der Wasseraufnahme, so lange bis der Flüssigkeitsverlust alles, was den Körper ernährt und versorgt, nicht ganz vertrocknet ist".

Then Plutarchus, Cicero 21.2,1: "Ἐπεὶ δ’ οὖν ἡ γνώμη περιῆλθεν εἰς αὐτόν, ἀναστὰς ἀπεφήνατο μὴ θανατοῦν τοὺς ἄνδρας, ἀλλὰ τὰς οὐσίας εἶναι δημοσίας, αὐτοὺς δ’ ἀπαχθέντας εἰς πόλεις τῆς Ἰταλίας, ἃς ἂν δοκῇ Κικέρωνι, τηρεῖσθαι δεδεμένους, ἄχρι ἂν οὗ καταπολεμηθῇ Κατιλίνας". "When, then, it was Caesar's turn to give his opinion, he rose and declared it to be against putting the conspirators to death, but in favour of confiscating their property and removing them to whatever cities of Italy Cicero might deem best, there to be put in fetters and closely guarded as long as Catiline will be defeated". (German, my try): "Als dann nun Caesar an der Reihe war, seine Meinung zu abzugeben, schlug er vor, nachdem er aufgestanden war, dass die Verräter nicht hingerichtet werden sollten, aber ihre Eigentum beschlagnahmt werden sollte, sie dann zu Städten in Italien abgeführt werden, die Cicero bestimmte, (dort) solange gefangen gehalten werden, bis Catilina, besiegt sein würde".


Some more thoughts? Thanks ! Yours Peter

Robert Crowe
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Location: Northern Ireland

Re: difference between

Post by Robert Crowe » November 28th, 2016, 1:38 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:after having googled in the TLG I've the impression that ἄχρι ἂν οὗ points to the duration till the endpoint, not the endpoint itself
Essentially the contingency particle ἄν with ἄχρι or ἄχρι οὖ plus the subjunctive expresses indefinite time, whereas ἄχρι or ἄχρι οὖ without ἄν plus the indicative expresses definite time.
Tús maith leath na hoibre.

Peter Streitenberger
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Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: difference between

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 28th, 2016, 1:55 pm

Dear Robert, ok - thanks. Do you have a way to discern these two phrases, where that difference gets clear? Yours Peter

Robert Crowe
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Location: Northern Ireland

Re: difference between

Post by Robert Crowe » November 28th, 2016, 3:34 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:a) Revelation 2:25 Πλὴν ὃ ἔχετε κρατήσατε, ἄχρι οὗ ἂν ἥξω
"But hold fast what you have till I come."
A literal English translation here would be: "But hold fast what you have till such time I come."

Peter Streitenberger wrote:b) Revelation 20:3 καὶ ἔβαλεν αὐτὸν εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον, καὶ ἔκλεισεν καὶ ἐσφράγισεν ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ, ἵνα μὴ πλανᾷ ἔτι τὰ ἔθνη, ἄχρι τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη· καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα δεῖ αὐτὸν λυθῆναι μικρὸν χρόνον.
"and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."
Here it would be: " –––he should deceive the nations no more till exactly the thousand years were finished.––"


Your translation, though, is good standard English which is rarely so literally precise. The Greek here is more precise than the NRSV.
Tús maith leath na hoibre.

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 199
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: difference between

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 28th, 2016, 5:42 pm

Dear Robert,

I had the privilege to have a friend from New York at supper this evening. She helped me to understand your literal translation "But hold fast what you have till such time I come" - I've never came across such a rendering - but it was explained so that I could understand it.
I think I understand now your reasoning - the first example points to a uncertain moment in future time, the second refers to the exact date given by the 1000 years.
One time indefinite, the other definite. With this in mind I try to figure out, how that can be expressed in German. Besides I try to google in the TLG for further proving examples.

Thank you a lot !
Yours Peter

Robert Crowe
Posts: 102
Joined: January 8th, 2016, 11:06 am
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: difference between

Post by Robert Crowe » November 28th, 2016, 6:17 pm

I think we'll call it a denouement because the word sounds so sophisticated and French.
[Pseudonymous Bosch]

Wish my German was half as good as your English, Peter.
Tús maith leath na hoibre.

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 199
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: difference between

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 28th, 2016, 6:31 pm

Just come over to us here in Bavaria on holiday and get some free German lessons, Robert, I'm trained to teach German :-)
denouement = not in my mental box of words, I had Ancient Greek at school, I and only a few more, all the rest did French, but I'd guess "clarification", "solution"? But I have no real clue.
Yours Peter

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