οπισω

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
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David Lim
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οπισω

Post by David Lim » August 2nd, 2011, 12:07 am

LSJ wrote:II. of Time, hereafter, since the future is unseen and was therefore regarded as behind us, whereas the past is known and therefore before our eyes, “ἡμῖν τεκέεσσί τ᾽ ὀπίσσω πῆμα λίποιτο” Il.3.160 ; Τρῳαὶ δέ μ᾽ ὀπίσσω πᾶσαι μωμήσονται ib.411, cf. Hes. Op.741, Th.488 ; “ἔς περ ὀπίσσω” Od.20.199 (“εἰσοπίσω” S.Ph.1104(lyr.)) ; opp. to “νῦν, τούτῳ δ᾽ οὔτ᾽ ἂρ νῦν φρένες ἔμπεδοι [εἰσίν], οὔτ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ὀπίσσω ἔσσονται” Il.6.352 ; to “προπάροιθε, σεῖο δ᾽, Ἀχιλλεῦ, οὔ τις ἀνὴρ προπάροιθε [ἦν] μακάρτατος, οὔτ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ὀπίσσω [ἔσσεται]” Od.11.483 ; where ὀπίσσω and πρόσσω are opposed, πρόσσω must be the past and ὀπίσσω the future, “οἶδε νοῆσαι ἅμα πρόσσω καὶ ὀπίσσω” Il.1.343 ; “ἅμα πρόσσω καὶ ὀ. λεύσσει” 3.109 ; “ὅρα πρόσσω καὶ ὀ.” 18.250, Od.24.452 ; so “ὅσα τ᾽ ἦν ὅσα τ᾽ ἔσθ᾽ ὅσα τ᾽ ἔσται ὀπίσσω” Emp.21.9 (ap.Arist.Metaph.1000a30); οὔτ᾽ ἐνθάδ᾽ ὁρῶν οὔτ᾽ ὀπίσω neither present nor future, S.OT 488(lyr.) ; “τοὐπίσω σκοπεῖν” E.Fr.49 ; “θνητὸς πεφυκὼς τοὐπίσω πειρῶ βλέπειν” Isid.Trag.2 ; cf. “ὄπισθεν” 11.1.
2. ἐν τοῖσι ὀ. λόγοις in the books yet to come, in the following books, Hdt.1.75 ; cf. “ὄπισθεν” 11.2.
I was checking on the possible meanings of "οπισω", but neither in the new testament or septuagint or LSJ did I find that it can be used as a preposition with the meaning of "after (in time)", except for Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30. Is there such a usage? Or is "μετα" used instead? I would think that Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30 actually mean "behind me" in opposition to "in front of me" in the sense of not being in the forefront, rather than "after me" which implies a temporal sequence. Does it?
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Jason Hare
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Re: οπισω

Post by Jason Hare » August 6th, 2011, 9:11 am

David Lim wrote:
LSJ wrote:II. of Time, hereafter, since the future is unseen and was therefore regarded as behind us, whereas the past is known and therefore before our eyes, “ἡμῖν τεκέεσσί τ᾽ ὀπίσσω πῆμα λίποιτο” Il.3.160 ; Τρῳαὶ δέ μ᾽ ὀπίσσω πᾶσαι μωμήσονται ib.411, cf. Hes. Op.741, Th.488 ; “ἔς περ ὀπίσσω” Od.20.199 (“εἰσοπίσω” S.Ph.1104(lyr.)) ; opp. to “νῦν, τούτῳ δ᾽ οὔτ᾽ ἂρ νῦν φρένες ἔμπεδοι [εἰσίν], οὔτ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ὀπίσσω ἔσσονται” Il.6.352 ; to “προπάροιθε, σεῖο δ᾽, Ἀχιλλεῦ, οὔ τις ἀνὴρ προπάροιθε [ἦν] μακάρτατος, οὔτ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ὀπίσσω [ἔσσεται]” Od.11.483 ; where ὀπίσσω and πρόσσω are opposed, πρόσσω must be the past and ὀπίσσω the future, “οἶδε νοῆσαι ἅμα πρόσσω καὶ ὀπίσσω” Il.1.343 ; “ἅμα πρόσσω καὶ ὀ. λεύσσει” 3.109 ; “ὅρα πρόσσω καὶ ὀ.” 18.250, Od.24.452 ; so “ὅσα τ᾽ ἦν ὅσα τ᾽ ἔσθ᾽ ὅσα τ᾽ ἔσται ὀπίσσω” Emp.21.9 (ap.Arist.Metaph.1000a30); οὔτ᾽ ἐνθάδ᾽ ὁρῶν οὔτ᾽ ὀπίσω neither present nor future, S.OT 488(lyr.) ; “τοὐπίσω σκοπεῖν” E.Fr.49 ; “θνητὸς πεφυκὼς τοὐπίσω πειρῶ βλέπειν” Isid.Trag.2 ; cf. “ὄπισθεν” 11.1.
2. ἐν τοῖσι ὀ. λόγοις in the books yet to come, in the following books, Hdt.1.75 ; cf. “ὄπισθεν” 11.2.
I was checking on the possible meanings of "οπισω", but neither in the new testament or septuagint or LSJ did I find that it can be used as a preposition with the meaning of "after (in time)", except for Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30. Is there such a usage? Or is "μετα" used instead? I would think that Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30 actually mean "behind me" in opposition to "in front of me" in the sense of not being in the forefront, rather than "after me" which implies a temporal sequence. Does it?
If there's no use of ὀπίσω in a temporal sense, we might take the references to John the Baptist and Jesus as Hebraisms, since in Hebrew אַחֲרֵי (acharei) bears both uses. It's used this way in Ecclesiastes 2:18:

וְשָׂנֵאתִי אֲנִי אֶת־כָּל־עֲמָלִי שֶׁאֲנִי עָמֵל תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ שֶׁאַנִּיחֶנּוּ לָאָדָם שֶׁיִּהְיֶה אַחֲרָי׃
And I detested all my labor at which I toiled under the sun, which I shall leave to the person who will be after me (אַחֲרָי).

Strangely, in Hebrew, the phrase "come after me" means "follow me." This is picked up in the Greek New Testament also, as in Mark 1:17 (Δεῦτε ὀπίσω μου, καὶ ποιήσω ὑμᾶς γενέσθαι ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων - Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men).

You should add Mark 1:7 to your list, by the way, since it also uses ὁπίσω μου temporally, and also in reference to Jesus coming "after" John the Baptist.
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David Lim
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Re: οπισω

Post by David Lim » August 6th, 2011, 12:53 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
David Lim wrote:
LSJ wrote:II. of Time, hereafter, since the future is unseen and was therefore regarded as behind us, whereas the past is known and therefore before our eyes, “ἡμῖν τεκέεσσί τ᾽ ὀπίσσω πῆμα λίποιτο” Il.3.160 ; Τρῳαὶ δέ μ᾽ ὀπίσσω πᾶσαι μωμήσονται ib.411, cf. Hes. Op.741, Th.488 ; “ἔς περ ὀπίσσω” Od.20.199 (“εἰσοπίσω” S.Ph.1104(lyr.)) ; opp. to “νῦν, τούτῳ δ᾽ οὔτ᾽ ἂρ νῦν φρένες ἔμπεδοι [εἰσίν], οὔτ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ὀπίσσω ἔσσονται” Il.6.352 ; to “προπάροιθε, σεῖο δ᾽, Ἀχιλλεῦ, οὔ τις ἀνὴρ προπάροιθε [ἦν] μακάρτατος, οὔτ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ὀπίσσω [ἔσσεται]” Od.11.483 ; where ὀπίσσω and πρόσσω are opposed, πρόσσω must be the past and ὀπίσσω the future, “οἶδε νοῆσαι ἅμα πρόσσω καὶ ὀπίσσω” Il.1.343 ; “ἅμα πρόσσω καὶ ὀ. λεύσσει” 3.109 ; “ὅρα πρόσσω καὶ ὀ.” 18.250, Od.24.452 ; so “ὅσα τ᾽ ἦν ὅσα τ᾽ ἔσθ᾽ ὅσα τ᾽ ἔσται ὀπίσσω” Emp.21.9 (ap.Arist.Metaph.1000a30); οὔτ᾽ ἐνθάδ᾽ ὁρῶν οὔτ᾽ ὀπίσω neither present nor future, S.OT 488(lyr.) ; “τοὐπίσω σκοπεῖν” E.Fr.49 ; “θνητὸς πεφυκὼς τοὐπίσω πειρῶ βλέπειν” Isid.Trag.2 ; cf. “ὄπισθεν” 11.1.
2. ἐν τοῖσι ὀ. λόγοις in the books yet to come, in the following books, Hdt.1.75 ; cf. “ὄπισθεν” 11.2.
I was checking on the possible meanings of "οπισω", but neither in the new testament or septuagint or LSJ did I find that it can be used as a preposition with the meaning of "after (in time)", except for Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30. Is there such a usage? Or is "μετα" used instead? I would think that Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30 actually mean "behind me" in opposition to "in front of me" in the sense of not being in the forefront, rather than "after me" which implies a temporal sequence. Does it?
If there's no use of ὀπίσω in a temporal sense, we might take the references to John the Baptist and Jesus as Hebraisms, since in Hebrew אַחֲרֵי (acharei) bears both uses. It's used this way in Ecclesiastes 2:18:

וְשָׂנֵאתִי אֲנִי אֶת־כָּל־עֲמָלִי שֶׁאֲנִי עָמֵל תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ שֶׁאַנִּיחֶנּוּ לָאָדָם שֶׁיִּהְיֶה אַחֲרָי׃
And I detested all my labor at which I toiled under the sun, which I shall leave to the person who will be after me (אַחֲרָי).

Strangely, in Hebrew, the phrase "come after me" means "follow me." This is picked up in the Greek New Testament also, as in Mark 1:17 (Δεῦτε ὀπίσω μου, καὶ ποιήσω ὑμᾶς γενέσθαι ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων - Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men).

You should add Mark 1:7 to your list, by the way, since it also uses ὁπίσω μου temporally, and also in reference to Jesus coming "after" John the Baptist.
Oh okay that sounds like a highly probable explanation :) Yes I missed Mark 1:7 out, thanks. (But my unimportant next question would be: why did LSJ miss that meaning out if they did include "follow after me" as a new testament usage?)
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Jason Hare
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Re: οπισω

Post by Jason Hare » August 6th, 2011, 6:47 pm

David Lim wrote:
Jason Hare wrote:
David Lim wrote:I was checking on the possible meanings of "οπισω", but neither in the new testament or septuagint or LSJ did I find that it can be used as a preposition with the meaning of "after (in time)", except for Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30. Is there such a usage? Or is "μετα" used instead? I would think that Matt 3:11 and John 1:15/27/30 actually mean "behind me" in opposition to "in front of me" in the sense of not being in the forefront, rather than "after me" which implies a temporal sequence. Does it?
If there's no use of ὀπίσω in a temporal sense, we might take the references to John the Baptist and Jesus as Hebraisms, since in Hebrew אַחֲרֵי (acharei) bears both uses. It's used this way in Ecclesiastes 2:18:

וְשָׂנֵאתִי אֲנִי אֶת־כָּל־עֲמָלִי שֶׁאֲנִי עָמֵל תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ שֶׁאַנִּיחֶנּוּ לָאָדָם שֶׁיִּהְיֶה אַחֲרָי׃
And I detested all my labor at which I toiled under the sun, which I shall leave to the person who will be after me (אַחֲרָי).

Strangely, in Hebrew, the phrase "come after me" means "follow me." This is picked up in the Greek New Testament also, as in Mark 1:17 (Δεῦτε ὀπίσω μου, καὶ ποιήσω ὑμᾶς γενέσθαι ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων - Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men).

You should add Mark 1:7 to your list, by the way, since it also uses ὁπίσω μου temporally, and also in reference to Jesus coming "after" John the Baptist.
Oh okay that sounds like a highly probable explanation :) Yes I missed Mark 1:7 out, thanks. (But my unimportant next question would be: why did LSJ miss that meaning out if they did include "follow after me" as a new testament usage?)
Why don't you include it as a subcategory of what you quoted above, which refers to time?
of Time, hereafter, since the future is unseen and was therefore regarded as behind us, whereas the past is known and therefore before our eyes....
That says exactly what you are claiming it doesn't. Since the future is unseen, it refers to time in the future. "The one who comes after me" is the one who comes in the future (in comparison to me).
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Jason A. Hare
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David Lim
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Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: οπισω

Post by David Lim » August 6th, 2011, 10:43 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
David Lim wrote:
Jason Hare wrote:If there's no use of ὀπίσω in a temporal sense, we might take the references to John the Baptist and Jesus as Hebraisms, since in Hebrew אַחֲרֵי (acharei) bears both uses. It's used this way in Ecclesiastes 2:18:

וְשָׂנֵאתִי אֲנִי אֶת־כָּל־עֲמָלִי שֶׁאֲנִי עָמֵל תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ שֶׁאַנִּיחֶנּוּ לָאָדָם שֶׁיִּהְיֶה אַחֲרָי׃
And I detested all my labor at which I toiled under the sun, which I shall leave to the person who will be after me (אַחֲרָי).

Strangely, in Hebrew, the phrase "come after me" means "follow me." This is picked up in the Greek New Testament also, as in Mark 1:17 (Δεῦτε ὀπίσω μου, καὶ ποιήσω ὑμᾶς γενέσθαι ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων - Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men).

You should add Mark 1:7 to your list, by the way, since it also uses ὁπίσω μου temporally, and also in reference to Jesus coming "after" John the Baptist.
Oh okay that sounds like a highly probable explanation :) Yes I missed Mark 1:7 out, thanks. (But my unimportant next question would be: why did LSJ miss that meaning out if they did include "follow after me" as a new testament usage?)
Why don't you include it as a subcategory of what you quoted above, which refers to time?
Because I did not consider "follow after me" to have anything to do with time.. In English it simply means "follow me".
Jason Hare wrote:
of Time, hereafter, since the future is unseen and was therefore regarded as behind us, whereas the past is known and therefore before our eyes....
That says exactly what you are claiming it doesn't. Since the future is unseen, it refers to time in the future. "The one who comes after me" is the one who comes in the future (in comparison to me).
No I did not think so because that particular section seemed to refer to "οπισω" as an adverb or a substantive rather than as a preposition. Actually I would prefer if I can see its actual usage with a genitive rather than merely inferring from lexica. Do you know of any examples outside the Jewish and Christian scriptures?
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David Lim
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Re: οπισω

Post by David Lim » August 14th, 2011, 8:23 pm

Jason Hare wrote:If there's no use of ὀπίσω in a temporal sense, we might take the references to John the Baptist and Jesus as Hebraisms, since in Hebrew אַחֲרֵי (acharei) bears both uses. It's used this way in Ecclesiastes 2:18:

וְשָׂנֵאתִי אֲנִי אֶת־כָּל־עֲמָלִי שֶׁאֲנִי עָמֵל תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ שֶׁאַנִּיחֶנּוּ לָאָדָם שֶׁיִּהְיֶה אַחֲרָי׃
And I detested all my labor at which I toiled under the sun, which I shall leave to the person who will be after me (אַחֲרָי).
The LXX gives "μετ εμε" in Eccl 2:18, however I searched again and found 1 Sam 24:21 and 1 Ki 1:24 where the Hebrew uses the word you mentioned and the LXX uses "οπισω μου". I missed them earlier. So I am convinced that this is probably a Hebraism and can indeed refer to subsequent time. :)
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