ὕδωρ, ατος, τό (Hom.+; loanw. in rabb.) water
1. in a material sense, as an element Dg 8:2 (Ar. 5, 1f; Ath. 18, 3; s. στοιχεῖον 1). Of the ocean 1 Cl 33:3; pl. Hv 1, 3, 4 (cp. Ps 135:6, w. the sing. as v.l.; JosAs 12:3; Just., A I, 60, 6). The earth (before the Deluge) formed ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ δι᾿ ὕδατος 2 Pt 3:5 (cp. HDiels, Doxographi Graeci 1879 p. 276, 12 [Θαλῆς] ἐξ ὕδατός φησι πάντα εἶναι καὶ εἰς ὕδωρ πάντα ἀναλύεσθαι; JChaine, Cosmogonie aquatique et conflagration finale d’après 2 Pt: RB 46, ’37, 207–16. S. also Artem. 1, 77 p. 70, 6 al. ἐξ ὕδατος ἢ δι᾿ ὕδατος). Of the waters of the Deluge 1 Pt 3:20; 2 Pt 3:6. σίφων ὕδατος a water-pump Hm 11:18. κεράμιον ὕδατος a water jar (s. κεράμιον) Mk 14:13; Lk 22:10. ποτήριον ὕδατος (Just., A I, 65, 3; 66, 4; PGen 51, 9) a cup of water Mk 9:41. Water for washing Mt 27:24; Lk 7:44; J 13:5. Cp. Hs 9, 10, 3. Water fr. a well J 4:7 (TestAbr A 3 p. 79f [Stone p. 7f] ὕδωρ ἀπὸ τοῦ φρέατος); fr. a spring Js 3:12 (γλυκὺ ὕδωρ; s. γλυκύς, also Demetr.: 722 fgm. 4 Jac.; ParJer 9:18; Just., D. 86, 1; Herm. Wr. 13, 17); of a stream Rv 16:12 (cp. ParJer 6:25 τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ Ἰορδάνου; Just., D. 88, 3).—τὸ ὕδωρ specif.=the river Mt 3:16; Mk 1:10; =the pool J 5:3f, 7; =the lake Lk 8:24, pl. Mt 8:32; 14:28f; =the spring, etc. pl. Rv 8:11ab; cp. πηγαὶ (τῶν) ὑδάτων vs. 10; 14:7; 16:4 (Just. A I, 64, 1); =the mountain torrent pl. Hv 1, 1, 3; cp. GJs 18:3. Of waters gener., or not more exactly defined Mt 17:15. ὕδωρ τι Ac 8:36a. Cp. vs. 38f. Pl. Mk 9:22. ὕδατα πολλά (Ps 28:3) J 3:23; Rv 17:1; ὕδατα ταῦτα GJs 3:2. φωνὴ ὑδάτων πολλῶν the sound of many waters (Ps 92:4) Rv 1:15; 14:2; 19:6 (Mussies 82). χεόμενα ὕδατα water that is poured out Ox 840, 32f. γεμίσαι ὕδωρ draw water GJs 11:1 (cp. TestAbr A 3 p. 79, 34 [Stone p. 6]).—After Num 15:16ff of trial by water ὕδωρ τῆς ἐλέγξεως GJs 16:1. W. bread as that which is necessary to maintain life Hs 5, 3, 7 (cp. Am 8:11; JosAs 10:2; 4 [6] Esdr [POxy 1010]); AcPl Ha 4, 4. In contrast to wine J 2:9 (ApcEsdr 4:27). W. blood J 19:34 (s. αἷμα 1a). Christ came δι᾿ ὕδατος καὶ αἵματος and ἐν τῷ ὕδατι καὶ ἐν τῷ αἵματι 1J 5:6abc; cp. vs. 8 (s. διά A 1a, ἐν 5aβ and ἔρχομαι 1bα). Gener. of John’s baptism by water (alone), opp. πνεῦμα Mt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16; J 1:33 (26, 31); Ac 1:5; 11:16. Of Christian baptism, the new birth ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος J 3:5 (on the originality of the rdg. ὕδατος καί s. Hdb.3 ad loc.; Bultmann 98, 2; cp. {p. 1024} Just., D. 138, 3 δι᾿ ὕδατος καὶ πίστεως καὶ ξύλου), 8 v.l. Cp. Ac 10:47 AcPl Ha 3, 32. καθαρίσας τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος ἐν ῥήματι Eph 5:26. λελουσμένοι τὸ σῶμα ὕδατι καθαρῷ Hb 10:22 (καθαρός 1). Even the OT points to the water of baptism B 11:1ab, 8ab, which Christ has consecrated by his own baptism IEph 18:2. The symbolic language of Hermas makes many allusions to the baptismal water: δι᾿ ὕδατος ἀναβαίνειν s 9, 16, 2. εἰς ὕδωρ καταβαίνειν m 4, 3, 1; s 9, 16, 6. The tower (=God’s assembly, church) is built ἐπὶ ὑδάτων Hv 3, 2, 4; 3, 3, 5ab, ὅτι ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶν διὰ ὕδατος ἐσώθη καὶ σωθήσεται 3, 3, 5c. Acc. to D 7:1, when at all poss., ὕδωρ ζῶν running water (ζάω 4) is to be used in baptizing. Cp. 7:2.
cwconrad wrote:Perhaps a citation from BDAG regarding the usage of this word will convince you of this reference work's indispensability -- and its pricelessness even at its high cost (and I cite only the first sense -- material element)
David Lim wrote:cwconrad wrote:Perhaps a citation from BDAG regarding the usage of this word will convince you of this reference work's indispensability -- and its pricelessness even at its high cost (and I cite only the first sense -- material element)
I am sure BDAG looks very useful, but I don't think I found an answer to my question in the section you quoted. Do you mean that it is the same "many waters" as in Psa 29:3, Psa 94:4..? Those seem to be a figurative description of the oceans and their sound, but it doesn't seem to be similar to John 3:23.
cwconrad wrote:David Lim wrote:cwconrad wrote:Perhaps a citation from BDAG regarding the usage of this word will convince you of this reference work's indispensability -- and its pricelessness even at its high cost (and I cite only the first sense -- material element)
I am sure BDAG looks very useful, but I don't think I found an answer to my question in the section you quoted. Do you mean that it is the same "many waters" as in Psa 29:3, Psa 94:4..? Those seem to be a figurative description of the oceans and their sound, but it doesn't seem to be similar to John 3:23.
Sorry. I thought you were hung up over some difference between usages of the word in the singular and plural. In that regard, it's probably worth noting that the Hebrew word for water is a plural (mayim). I'm reasonably confident that what's meant by ὕδατα πολλὰ is "lots of water," and that the reference is to points in the Jordan river at the locale indicated that are better suited to dunking. We do speak (in English, at any rate) of the "waters" of a river -- perhaps derivative from the Biblical usage? I don't know. But the plural ὕδατα seems common enough in Biblical Greek with reference to rivers. I take it that ὕδατα πολλά means "lots of water."
Vasile Stancu wrote:I think that references such as Mtt 14:28 (κέλευσόν με ἐλθεῖν πρὸς σὲ ἐπὶ τὰ ὕδατα) and Mr 9:22 (εἰς πῦρ αὐτὸν ἔβαλεν καὶ εἰς ὕδατα) show that ὕδατα does not necessarily mean 'rainwater'.
David Lim wrote:Vasile Stancu wrote:I think that references such as Mtt 14:28 (κέλευσόν με ἐλθεῖν πρὸς σὲ ἐπὶ τὰ ὕδατα) and Mr 9:22 (εἰς πῦρ αὐτὸν ἔβαλεν καὶ εἰς ὕδατα) show that ὕδατα does not necessarily mean 'rainwater'.
Yes I know it does not necessarily mean rainwater, but I did not "see the plural used for simply water itself", but only for "those watery things which are somewhat countable like waters", and possibly "rainwater" as the quotes in the LSJ show. Matt 14:28 and Mark 9:22 will both be instances where "υδατα" means "waters", in the first referring to "the waters of the sea" and in the second referring to "places of water". I was just wondering if John 3:23 may be referring to rainwater rather than places of water. Anyway I think Carl's suggestion that it refers to sites along the Jordan river is a very plausible one if "rainwater" is not correct.
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