Morphology of δρομόω

Wes Wood
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Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Wes Wood » January 1st, 2016, 3:15 pm

The following question pertains specifically to Attic Greek. I have assumed the form of this word was originally δρόμοι̭ω because I have seen the forms δρόμωσι and δρόμοισι. My guess is that δρόμοι̭ > δρόμω > δρόμω + νσι = δρόμωσι and/or δρόμοι̭ + νσι = δρόμοισι, depending on whether or not ι̭ is retained. Is this correct? Would the form used depend on an author's specific usage or is one form used to differentiate similar forms? For example, is δρόμωσι used for third person active indicative and δρόμοισι (δρόμοι̭ + ντσι > δρόμοισι) used for dative plural present active participle? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Ken M. Penner » January 1st, 2016, 5:47 pm

δρόμοισι doesn't look very Attic to me. It would be helpful to know where you've seen these forms.
Ken M. Penner
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Wes Wood
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Wes Wood » January 1st, 2016, 7:33 pm

I know I have seen it in Plato's laws, most recently but I can't say with certainty where else.
Plato’s Laws 1.625d wrote: ὁρᾶτε ὡς οὐκ ἔστι, καθάπερ ἡ τῶν Θετταλῶν, πεδιάς, διὸ δὴ καὶ τοῖς μὲν ἵπποις ἐκεῖνοι χρῶνται μᾶλλον, δρόμοισιν δὲ ἡμεῖς: ἥδε γὰρ ἀνώμαλος αὖ καὶ πρὸς τὴν τῶν πεζῇ δρόμων ἄσκησιν μᾶλλον σύμμετρος.
LSJ returns δρόμοισιν as a possibility for δρόμος, but it seems that Plato doesn't use that declension anywhere else for the dative plural, but he does use these--assuming that I am not wrong and they are, in fact, dative plurals:
Plato’s Laws 7.824a wrote: μόνη δὴ πᾶσιν λοιπὴ καὶ ἀρίστη ἡ τῶν τετραπόδων ἵπποις καὶ κυσὶν καὶ τοῖς ἑαυτῶν θήρα σώμασιν, ὧν ἁπάντων κρατοῦσιν δρόμοις καὶ πληγαῖς καὶ βολαῖς αὐτόχειρες θηρεύοντες, ὅσοις ἀνδρείας τῆς θείας ἐπιμελές.
Phaedrus 227a wrote: τῷ δὲ σῷ καὶ ἐμῷ ἑταίρῳ πειθόμενος Ἀκουμενῷ κατὰ τὰς ὁδοὺς ποιοῦμαι τοὺς περιπάτους: φησὶ γὰρ ἀκοπωτέρους εἶναι τῶν ἐν τοῖς δρόμοις.
Does any of this help?
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cwconrad
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by cwconrad » January 1st, 2016, 8:53 pm

Where else Wes may have seen δρόμοισιν I don't know, but it could be an Aeolic dialect 3d pl. pres. indic. of δρομοῦν, and it might conceivably be found in the verse of Sappho or Alcaeus or in Hellenistic poets who, like Homer, occasionally wrote in Aeolic, where we'd also see Ionic dative plurals in -οισι(ν). The noun δρόμος appears to be involved in the passage Wes has cited from Plato's Laws. I think that the DGE entry on δρόμος is most informative, but my Spanish is hardly up to reaping the full benefit of it. I get the impression that the word is more poetic in register. Note particularly in DGE (at Logeion) s.v. δρόμος:
A como n. de acción
I de pers. y anim.
1 carrera ...
d) frases hechas ἅτε <τὸν> περὶ τοῦ παντὸς ἤδη δρόμον θέοντεςjugándose el todo por el todo Hdt.8.74, τὸν περὶ ψυχῆς δρόμον δραμεῖνcorrer por salvar el pellejo Ar.V.376, cf. Pl.Tht.172e, χωλῶν δ. ὠκύτατος καὶ κωφὸς ἀκούσει como imposibles resueltos milagrosamente Orac.Sib.8.206, cf. Amph.Seleuc.145
• frec. dat. δρόμῳ, δρόμοισι a la carrera μετά με δρόμοισι διόμενοι A.Supp.819
• esp. milit. o en sentido hostil a paso ligero o de carga ἤισαν δρόμῳ ἐς τὸν ἀνδρεῶνα Hdt.3.77, δρόμῳ ἵεντο εἰς τοὺς βαρβάρους Hdt.6.112, cf. 9.59, ἐχώρουν δρόμῳ Th.4.31, δρόμῳ ξυνῆψαν E.Ph.1101, cf. X.Cyr.3.3.62, Aen.Tact.15.4, D.S.14.23, βοηθῆσαι δρόμῳ Ar.Fr.564, cf. Au.205, δρόμῳ op. βάδην X.Cyr.3.3.61, cf. An.1.2.17, Plb.10.20.3
• fig. correría, andanzas en la caza οὐκ αὐτὸν ὅ τε δ. αἵ τ' ἐν ὄρεσσι ῥυσεῦνται ξυναὶ τᾶμος ἑκαβολίαι recogiendo el sign. de σύνδρομος Call.Lau.Pall.111, cf. Opp.C.2.17.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Wes Wood
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Wes Wood » January 1st, 2016, 9:16 pm

Here's what google translate makes of that entry:
1 run ...
d) phrases ἅτε <τὸν> περὶ τοῦ παντὸς ἤδη δρόμον θέοντες risking everything on the Hdt.8.74, τὸν περὶ ψυχῆς δρόμον δραμεῖν run to save his skin Ar.V.376, cf. Pl.Tht.172e, χωλῶν δ. ὠκύτατος καὶ κωφὸς ἀκούσει Orac.Sib.8.206 miraculously resolved as impossible, cf. Amph.Seleuc.145
• freq. dat. δρόμῳ, δρόμοισι the race μετά με δρόμοισι διόμενοι A.Supp.819
• esp. milit. or hostile brisk sense or load ἤισαν δρόμῳ ἐς τὸν ἀνδρεῶνα Hdt.3.77, δρόμῳ ἵεντο εἰς τοὺς βαρβάρους Hdt.6.112, cf. 9.59, ἐχώρουν δρόμῳ Th.4.31, δρόμῳ ξυνῆψαν E.Ph.1101, cf. X.Cyr.3.3.62, Aen.Tact.15.4, DS14.23, βοηθῆσαι δρόμῳ Ar.Fr.564, cf. Au.205, δρόμῳ op. βάδην X.Cyr.3.3.61, cf. An.1.2.17, Plb.10.20.3
• fig. run, adventures in hunting οὐκ αὐτὸν ὅ τε δ. αἵ τ 'ἐν ὄρεσσι ῥυσεῦνται ξυναὶ τᾶμος ἑκαβολίαι picking up the sign. of σύνδρομος Call.Lau.Pall.111, cf. Opp.C.2.17.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 2nd, 2016, 8:47 am

cwconrad wrote:Where else Wes may have seen δρόμοισιν I don't know, but it could be an Aeolic dialect 3d pl. pres. indic. of δρομοῦν, and it might conceivably be found in the verse of Sappho or Alcaeus or in Hellenistic poets who, like Homer, occasionally wrote in Aeolic, where we'd also see Ionic dative plurals in -οισι(ν). The noun δρόμος appears to be involved in the passage Wes has cited from Plato's Laws. I think that the DGE entry on δρόμος is most informative, but my Spanish is hardly up to reaping the full benefit of it. I get the impression that the word is more poetic in register. Note particularly in DGE (at Logeion) s.v. δρόμος:
A como n. de acción
I de pers. y anim.
1 carrera ...
d) frases hechas ἅτε <τὸν> περὶ τοῦ παντὸς ἤδη δρόμον θέοντεςjugándose el todo por el todo Hdt.8.74, τὸν περὶ ψυχῆς δρόμον δραμεῖνcorrer por salvar el pellejo Ar.V.376, cf. Pl.Tht.172e, χωλῶν δ. ὠκύτατος καὶ κωφὸς ἀκούσει como imposibles resueltos milagrosamente Orac.Sib.8.206, cf. Amph.Seleuc.145
• frec. dat. δρόμῳ, δρόμοισι a la carrera μετά με δρόμοισι διόμενοι A.Supp.819
• esp. milit. o en sentido hostil a paso ligero o de carga ἤισαν δρόμῳ ἐς τὸν ἀνδρεῶνα Hdt.3.77, δρόμῳ ἵεντο εἰς τοὺς βαρβάρους Hdt.6.112, cf. 9.59, ἐχώρουν δρόμῳ Th.4.31, δρόμῳ ξυνῆψαν E.Ph.1101, cf. X.Cyr.3.3.62, Aen.Tact.15.4, D.S.14.23, βοηθῆσαι δρόμῳ Ar.Fr.564, cf. Au.205, δρόμῳ op. βάδην X.Cyr.3.3.61, cf. An.1.2.17, Plb.10.20.3
• fig. correría, andanzas en la caza οὐκ αὐτὸν ὅ τε δ. αἵ τ' ἐν ὄρεσσι ῥυσεῦνται ξυναὶ τᾶμος ἑκαβολίαι recogiendo el sign. de σύνδρομος Call.Lau.Pall.111, cf. Opp.C.2.17.
Muy bien, gracias. Not sure why you cited the Spanish, but there is little doubt that the forms are from the noun δρόμος:

δρόμος
δρόμος, ὁ, (δραμεῖν)
course, race, in Il.mostly of horses, ἵπποισι τάθη δρόμος 23.375; also of men, τέτατο δρόμος ib.758; οὐρίῳ δρόμῳ with prosperous course, S.Aj.889 (lyr.); ἅπαντι χρῆσθαι τῷ δρόμῳ at full speed, Luc.Dom.10: of any quick movement, e. g. flight, A.Pers.207: of Time, ἡμέρης δ. a day's running, i. e. the distance one can go in a day, Hdt.2.5; κατανύσαι τὸν προκείμενον δ. Id.8.98; ἵππου δ. ἡμέρας D.19.273: of Things, δ. νεφέλης, ἡλίου τε καὶ σελήνης, E.Ph.163, Pl. Ax.370b (pl.), etc.; οἱ δ. τῶν ἀστέρων Procl.Par.Ptol.136; δρόμῳ at a run, freq. with Verbs of motion, δρόμῳ διαβάντας τὸν Ἀσωπόν Hdt.9.59; ἰέναι Id.3.77; χρῆσθαι Id.6.112; χωρεῖν Th.4.31; δ. ξυνῆψαν E. Ph.1101; βοηθῆσαι δ. Ar.Fr.551: in pl., δρόμοις A.Pr.838, Supp. 819.
foot-race, as a contest, IG2.594.11, al.: prov., περὶ τοῦ παντὸς δρόμον (-μου codd.) θεῖν to run for one's life, Hdt.8.74; τὸν περὶ ψυχῆς δρόμον δραμεῖν Ar.V.375; περὶ ψυχῆς ὁ δ. Pl.Tht.173a: generally, contest, πλαγᾶν δρόμος, i. e. a pugilistic contest, Pi.I.5(4).60.
lap in a race, S.El.726 (interpol. ib.691); ἐν τῷ δευτέρῳ δ. Arist.HA 579a8.
in speaking, rapid delivery, Longin.Rh.p.312S.
place for running, δρόμοι εὐρέες runs for cattle, Od.4.605.
racecourse, Hdt.6.126, E.Andr.599.
public walk, ἐν εὐσκίοις δ. Ἀκαδήμου Eup.32, cf. IG22.1126.36, etc.; colonnade, Pl.Tht.144c; κατάστεγος δ. cloister, Id.Euthd.273a; δ. ξυστός Aristias 5; in Crete, = γυμνάσιον, Suid., cf. SIG463.14 (Itanos, iii B. C.); δὔ ἢ τρεῖς δρόμους περιεληλυθότε having taken two or three turns in the cloister, Pl.Euthd. l. c.; in Egypt, avenue of Sphinxes at entrance of temples, OGI56.52 (Canopus, Ptol. III), Str.17.1.28, etc.; δ. τοῦ ἱεροῦ BGU 1130.10 (i B. C.).
orchestra in the theatre (Tarent.), Hsch.
metaph., ἔξω δρόμου or ἐκτὸς δρόμου φέρεσθαι get off the course, i. e. wander from the point, A.Pr.883 (anap.), Pl.Cra.414b; ἐκ δρόμου πεσεῖν A.Ag.1245; οὐδέν ἐστ' ἔξω δρόμου 'tis not foreign to the purpose, Id.Ch.514.
δ. δημόσιος, = Lat. cursus publicus, Procop. Vand.1.16, Arc.30, Lyd.Mag.2.10; δ. ὀξύς, = Lat. cursus velox, ib.3.61, POxy.900.7 (iv A. D.), et

The same root is supplied in the future and aorist forms normally associated with τρεχώ, δραμοῦμαι, ἔδραμον.
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Wes Wood
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Wes Wood » January 2nd, 2016, 3:35 pm

As I looked at the lexical entry for τρέχω, I noticed one of the passages listed was
Canticum 1:4 wrote:εἵλκυσάν σε, ὀπίσω σου εἰς ὀσμὴν μύρων δραμοῦμεν.
I can’t say so with absolutely certainty, but this is most likely where my journey began. Now I wonder if there is a reason that δρόμοω should be listed as an entry in LSJ. There is only one citation that is listed there, and it doesn’t seem to me to support the idea that the present tense form of the verb was ever used
Aq.Ps.67(68).32 wrote:Αἰθίοψ δρομώσει χεῖρα αὐτοῦ τῷ θεῷ.
I say all this with the understanding that there may be a variant for this verse that I am not aware of, that I have not waded through all of the entries that would overlap with the forms of δρόμος (namely δρόμοι and δρόμοις, though it may be noted that the present plural indicative forms of δρόμοω are not listed in Perseus to my knowledge), that I may be missing something, and/or that I may simply be wrong.

Thank you all for your most helpful responses!
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 3rd, 2016, 9:21 am

This is an Occam's razor sort of thing. The form you cite in the Plato is simply an archaism on Plato's part, the "epic" dative, δρομοῖσι. Why run to a rare word when there is a perfectly good explanation near at hand? The dative plural for the participle of the verb, BTW, if it follows the normal rules (and why shouldn't it?) would be δρομοῦσι(ν). It also makes perfect sense in context as the noun.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Wes Wood
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Wes Wood » January 3rd, 2016, 10:22 am

It wasn't so much a running to a rare form as it was an attempt to make sense of the unfamiliar. I had encountered the noun before in Plato's works, but the dative didn't take that form. So, I assumed there was something else going on, but I wasn't sure what. If I were reading an English author who consistently used the word 'colour' but once used the word 'color', I would assume that the latter reading was a typo, but only because of my greater linguistic awareness. When a less informed bloke, like myself, encounters instances like these he could be convinced there is a 'choice implies meaning' situation where none exists. Being aware of this and wishing to avoid an even greater mistake (in this case learning a faulty stem for a made up verb), I sought the advice of those more knowledgeable than I am who could resolve my 'colour' / 'color' problem. For all I know, even now, Plato could be making some wonderful allusion to relevant, extant Classical literature, that my ignorant self is unaware of, that is signaled by this unusual form.

Your message gives an implied, or perhaps directly stated, rebuke. Should I wield Occam's Razor here? I assume that this was only an unintentional danger of the medium of the forum, and the simplest solution isn't always the right solution. Group think, especially among intelligent individuals, will nearly always yield a better answer than my own private musings.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Morphology of δρομόω

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 3rd, 2016, 8:08 pm

Wes, I apologize, no rebuke intended. Your dedication to Greek and improving your skills is truly wonderful, and an inspiration to all. I was simply looking at your citations and giving some advice based on them. The end result is whether or not our Greek improves through such interaction, and I hope it has through this.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

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