Pronunciation of Katharevousa?

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pronunciation of Katharevousa?

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 12th, 2017, 9:55 am

MAubrey wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 5:22 pm
It's the same as Demotic/Modern Greek. The differences between Demotic and Katharevousa were primarily lexical/morphological. As far as I'm aware, they was never a difference pronunciation.

All the pronunciation changes had already happened before the "language question."

No breathing marks at all (no initial 'h' ever).
Five vowel system.
Fricatives instead of aspirated stops (th vs. tʰ).
Etc.
Though that article does point to a few pronunciation differences:
Phonological features: Katharevousa contained various pronunciations that did not fit the Modern Greek phonological system. For example, νδρ (Ancient and Demotic /ndr/, katharevousa /nðr/); φθ (Ancient /pʰtʰ/), [α]υθ, [ε]υθ: Demotic /ft/, katharevousa /fθ/; σθ; ρθρ.
No reference is given for that claim ...
0 x


ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Pronunciation of Katharevousa?

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 12th, 2017, 11:19 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 12th, 2017, 9:55 am
Phonological features: Katharevousa contained various pronunciations that did not fit the Modern Greek phonological system. For example, νδρ (Ancient and Demotic /ndr/, katharevousa /nðr/); φθ (Ancient /pʰtʰ/), [α]υθ, [ε]υθ: Demotic /ft/, katharevousa /fθ/; σθ; ρθρ.
No reference is given for that claim ...
That statement is a little left of centre.

It is a mouthful for uneducated speakers of standard Modern Greek to pronounce those consonant clusters described as katharevousa in that statement. Older or more conservatively (right-wing = free-market) minded speakers, who had learned katharevousa would not have a problem with pronouncing them. In addition a few words with those clusters are in common usage - the nominative of "a man" formed by the addition of the sigma of the nominative to the third declension accusative form άντρας [ándras] coexists in the language with άνδρας [ánδras] - the implicit claim in that quote is that these coexisting forms are out of place.

The background to the sound differences in the diglossia is that during the Byzantine period the consonant clusters were simplified in various ways for example from two fricatives to fricative + stop. The ἀδελφός of Classical / Koine Greek has been "simplified" to αδερφός too.

The inaccuracy in the quote is that while it doesn't say, but means to say that σθ is simplifed to στ within the context of morphological changes from the Koine to Modern forms of the language. Morphology of the passive aside, -σθ- is still pronounced /sθ/ in words such as σφαγιασθείς [sfajiasθís], or μισθώνω [misθóno] (our μισθόω "to hire" - it is regular for Koine short vowel stem verbs in omicron to have the form ώνω if the survive into Modern Greek).
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pronunciation of Katharevousa?

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 12th, 2017, 12:10 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 12th, 2017, 11:19 am
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 12th, 2017, 9:55 am
No reference is given for that claim ...
That statement is a little left of centre.
Let me unpack it a bit. Statements of fact on Wikipedia are supposed to be accompanied by a reference. This one is not, so I can't easily identify the source. It may well come from someone with direct knowledge, but there are apparently many variants on Katharevousa too.

Several people here said that there is no difference in pronunciation, I was quoting a source that said there was, and simply noting that there is no reference.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Pronunciation of Katharevousa?

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 12th, 2017, 12:17 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 12th, 2017, 12:10 pm
Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 12th, 2017, 11:19 am
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 12th, 2017, 9:55 am
No reference is given for that claim ...
That statement is a little left of centre.
Let me unpack it a bit. Statements of fact on Wikipedia are supposed to be accompanied by a reference. This one is not, so I can't easily identify the source. It may well come from someone with direct knowledge, but there are apparently many variants on Katharevousa too.

Several people here said that there is no difference in pronunciation, I was quoting a source that said there was, and simply noting that there is no reference.
Both are true.

There is no difference in the pronunciation of the letter values in the consonant clusters, but the combination of consonant clusters in katharevousa is not part of standard Modern Greek phonology as described in terms of the phonology without katharevousa elements. It is not a new argument.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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