What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Postby Jonathan Robie » November 5th, 2013, 8:50 am

Reminder: we write posts in English on B-Greek.

If people want a place to discuss Greek grammar in Greek, I can set up a forum for that. Are there enough people who would actually do that?

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Paul-Nitz wrote:Your practice of thinking in terms of Present Infinitive for 1st Aorists and Aorist Infinitives for the 2nd Aorist verbs is very interesting.

Ὡς ἁπλοῦν κεφάλαιον ἀρκεῖ ἡμῖν ἡ παραίνησις αὐτή. εἰ δὲ θέλομεν ἀκριβέστερον διακρῖναί τι ἢ ἐν τινὶ τρόπῳ ἔχομεν λυσιτελούντως μαθεῖν τὰ ῥηματα, θεωρῶμεν εἰ ἡ ἐννοία τοῦ ἀορίστου καὶ τοῦ ἐνεστῶτος διαφέρει ἢ οὐ. ἐὰν οὐ διαφέρουσιν αἱ δυό, ἱκανοῖ εἷς χρόνος ὡς ἔλεγον. ἐὰν διαφέρωσιν μὲν αἱ δυό, συμφέρει μαθεῖν καὶ τὰς δυὸ μορφὰς τοῦ ῥήματος.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Postby Paul-Nitz » November 5th, 2013, 11:47 am

Just to reiterate and consolidate, what we are talking about here is what form should a learner memorize? Which form of a verb is the best "label" for that verb?

We're agreed that the Infinitive is the best form for Greek. Some would say the primary form should be the Aorist. Others might argue that the Present (παρατατική) Infinitive is enough for verbs that do not change their root in the Aorist ("1st Aorists"). I'm thinking that Aorist and Present Infinitives should be presented for all verbs, if we are talking about lists for review and memorization.

Furthermore, with Carl's fine examples in the previous post, I would list the middle (εαυτική) infinitives whenever it is the more commonly used form. If a word was regularly used in both active (κοινη) and middle (εαυτική), then I would list both.

Good. I'm very happy with the results of this discussion. I have a request out to Gonzalo Diaz (Kalos Software) asking how hard it would be to generate a list of Aorist and Present Infinitives for a list of verbs. He said he'd look into it.
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
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Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Postby Jonathan Robie » November 5th, 2013, 12:05 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:I have a request out to Gonzalo Diaz (Kalos Software) asking how hard it would be to generate a list of Aorist and Present Infinitives for a list of verbs. He said he'd look into it.


Very cool!
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Postby Stephen Hughes » November 6th, 2013, 1:10 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:Reminder: we write posts in English on B-Greek.

I accept that reproof and I'll stop. Sorry for taking the liberty in this thread.

As people have probably guessed, I'm aiming to learn New Testament Greek as a second language in which I can not only read, but also be literate in - rather than as a foreign language in which I would be a passive only participant. I realise now that writing in Greek is an imposition of my personal views and learning biases on the community and that it is unreasonable to force others to understand Greek to understand my thoughts. I will try to brush up my English and continue participating in that way.

To make amends and to make people happy, let me interpolineate and "translate" (I'll keep the feel / mind of the Greek, but change the "language") :lol: my posts in Greek - starting from the most recent and working back.

Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?
Ὡς (as) ἁπλοῦν κεφάλαιον (a simple summary) ἀρκεῖ (it is sufficient) ἡμῖν (for us) ἡ παραίνησις αὐτή (this guideline). εἰ δὲ θέλομεν (but since we are wanting) ἀκριβέστερον (more acurately) διακρῖναί (to discern) τι ἢ ἐν τινὶ τρόπῳ (both what and by what means) ἔχομεν λυσιτελούντως (it would be advantageous for us) μαθεῖν (to learn) τὰ ῥηματα (the verbs that we find in the New Testament), θεωρῶμεν (lets take the time to look and see) εἰ (whether) ἡ ἐννοία (the sense) τοῦ ἀορίστου καὶ τοῦ ἐνεστῶτος (whether the sense of the aorist and the present) διαφέρει (differs) ἢ οὐ (or not). ἐὰν οὐ διαφέρουσιν αἱ δυό (If they do not differ - which I think will be the case), ἱκανοῖ εἷς χρόνος ὡς ἔλεγον (one "time" will suffice as I have been saying). ἐὰν διαφέρωσιν μὲν αἱ δυό (if they do actually differ), συμφέρει (it would help) μαθεῖν (to learn) καὶ τὰς δυὸ μορφὰς τοῦ ῥήματος (both forms of that verb).

"Such a guideline does us by way of a simple shortly put. But if we are wanting to more accurately to see the difference what and in which way we are having advantageously to learn the verbs, let us gaze upon if the sense of the aorist and of the present differs or no. If no they differ the two, suffices one tense as I was saying. If differ indeed the two, it is better to learn even the two forms of the verb."

Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?
Ἔα! (Ughh!) Παρέβλεψα (I overlooked because I looked down on) τοῦτο τὸ νῆμα (this thread) νομίζων (considering) ἓμ βασικὸν ἐρώτημα (an elementary-level question) εἰναι (to be). Νῦν δὲ (As it now stands) δηλόν ἐστιν (it is clear) ἐκ τῶν συμμετοχῶν (from the participants) τε καὶ (both and) φύσεως (of nature) τοῦ διαλόγου (of the discussin) αὐτοῦ (of this) ὁτι (that) ἐν τούτῳ τῷ νήματι (in this thread) μελετῶμεν (we are ruminating) τὴγ κατανόησιν (the understanding) ἐκπαιδευτικῆς μεθοδολογίας (of an educational methodology). εἰς τοῦτο (to this end) δὲ (but) ἐᾶτε με (allow me) οὕτως (thus) ὀψὲ (late) ἀντιγράφειν (to coy from one place to another) μερικὰς σκέψεις (various viewpoints) μου (of me) ἀπὸ τοῦ σαυτοῦ νήματος (from the of yourself thread).

ὁμολογουμένως (admittedly) δὴ (forsooth) ἡ προηγουμένη (the aforegoing) διάνοια (mind) παραβαίνει (transgresses) ἐκ μέρους (from part) τὸ ζήτημα (the topic) ὃ (which) ἔθηκεν (posited) ὁ Ῥάνδαλλ (the Randall) ἀλλὰ (but rather) οὐκ ἠθέλησα (not I wanted) μετασχηματίσαι (to change the form of) τὸ προγεγραμμένον λόγιον the before written utterance μου (of me).

"Ughh! I looked beside this thread thinking a foundational question to be. Now now clear is out of the partakers and both of nature of the discussion of this that in this thread we are studying the understanding of a rearing study of pursuit. Into this but allow me thus late to copy from one place to another various viewpoints of me from the of yourself thread.

Admittedly forsooth the aforegoing mind transgresses from part the topic which posited the Randall but rather not I wanted to change the form of the before written utterance of me."

Jonathan Robie wrote:If people want a place to discuss Greek grammar in Greek, I can set up a forum for that.
I'm not in favour of splitting discussions in Greek off from discussions about Greek.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Postby Eeli Kaikkonen » November 6th, 2013, 4:14 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Paul-Nitz wrote:I have a request out to Gonzalo Diaz (Kalos Software) asking how hard it would be to generate a list of Aorist and Present Infinitives for a list of verbs. He said he'd look into it.


Very cool!


It's easy to do it for verbs which occur in the NT or other available tagged texts (e.g. MorphGNT) in both forms. Just find all lines like
250102 V- -PAN---- ὑγιαίνειν, ὑγιαίνειν ὑγιαίνειν ὑγιαίνω
and you've already got one infinitive and 1. pers. act. ind. forms which you can take. You can connect the present and aorist infinitive forms via the 1p.a.i. form. I could do this in python language.
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Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Postby Jonathan Robie » November 6th, 2013, 10:22 am

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Paul-Nitz wrote:I have a request out to Gonzalo Diaz (Kalos Software) asking how hard it would be to generate a list of Aorist and Present Infinitives for a list of verbs. He said he'd look into it.


Very cool!


It's easy to do it for verbs which occur in the NT or other available tagged texts (e.g. MorphGNT) in both forms. Just find all lines like
250102 V- -PAN---- ὑγιαίνειν, ὑγιαίνειν ὑγιαίνειν ὑγιαίνω
and you've already got one infinitive and 1. pers. act. ind. forms which you can take. You can connect the present and aorist infinitive forms via the 1p.a.i. form. I could do this in python language.


Yes, that's extremely easy for me in XQuery. It's the verbs for which both forms do not occur that are problematic. I had assumed that might include quite a few of them, but perhaps I should see what the data look like ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: What form(s) should be learned for verbs?

Postby Stephen Hughes » November 6th, 2013, 10:53 am

cwconrad wrote:I don't know whether this is a rhetorical question ("Who would be so stupid?) or a serious one, but I'll respond on the assumption that it's serious. Randall Buth has suggested, and I would concur, that verbs like ἵστασθαι/στῆναι with intransitive sense of "stand/stand up/come to a halt" should have a separate lexical entry from the causative ἱστάναι/στῆσαι with its sense of "erect/station/bring to a halt." I think it would indeed be best to have two lexical entries for this, but if there should only be one, I think the middle should be the lemma. So with the similar verb ἐγείρεσθαι/ἐγερθῆναι with the sense of "wake up/rise up" and the active/κοινή ἐγείρειν/ἐγεῖραι with the sense "awaken/rouse/erect". There are, in fact, quite a few verbs that should, in my opinion, be lemmatized in the middle/ἑαυτική because these intransitive forms really are primary, while the active/κοινή forms are causatives and usually far less frequent. Then there are what are properly to be called "Middle Verbs" belonging to the various subcategories of reflexive or mostly indirect reflexive type or spontaneous process verbs that have causative active/κοινή forms that are relatively rare: γεύεσθαι/γεύσασθαι "taste" vs. γεύειν/γεῦσαι "give a taste", σήπεσθαι/σαπῆναι "rot" vs. σήπειν/σῆψαι "cause to rot".

Yes, it is a serious question. Looking at Paul the in Africa's data, it would seem that the mesopathetic / heautic diastasis / voice predominates in the tallies, but not in reference works. I mean like its great that reference works are as close to each other as possible, but perhaps it would be better if they were closer to the useages that occur in the text.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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