Help me teach this class

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 8th, 2015, 7:44 am

Incidentally, I will almost certainly discuss the syntax in these two sentences tomorrow, and discuss them in English:

Κύριε, ἐπίτρεψόν μοι ἀπελθόντι πρῶτον θάψαι τὸν πατέρα μου.
Ἄφες τοὺς νεκροὺς θάψαι τοὺς ἑαυτῶν νεκρούς, σὺ δὲ ἀπελθὼν διάγγελλε τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

The use of the aorist participle for "go and", the agreement between μοι and ἀπελθόντι, and the nominative ἀπελθὼν with the same subject as διάγγελλε are all worth mentioning, and I don't think we can do that in Greek. I will probably postpone most of this for the time after the "in Greek" portion of the class.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 8th, 2015, 8:23 pm

Here's the plan for tomorrow. I'll keep the same time format we used last week:
  • 5 minutes greetings and small talk
  • 5-10 minutes language instruction, directly applicable to the text. This week: asking and answering questions.
  • 20 minutes work through the text to the point of understanding it well
  • 10 minutes interpretation and application
As always, there is a content objective and a language objective. The first 5-10 minutes is dedicated to the language objective: asking and answering questions using the interrogative pronoun, reviewing last week's exercises and adding the neuter, and also adding questions with ποῦ and ὅπου. Then we will spend 20 minutes working through the text as outlined in the last 4 messages, with the objective of thoroughly understanding the text via acting out the dialog and asking and answering questions - this portion is mostly in Greek. Then we will spend 10 minutes asking what the text means to us and how to apply it - this portion is mostly in English.

I probably need to write a series of simpler Greek sentences to capture the meaning of this one:

Οὐδεὶς ἐπιβαλὼν τὴν χεῖρα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον καὶ βλέπων εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω εὔθετός ἐστιν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ.

I will probably do that tomorrow morning, I can't do it before then. I will probably cover the use of the participle in two of these sentences using English descriptions (http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =30#p21552), I don't know how to do this well in Greek.

And the last 10 minutes will be in English. We aren't at the point of being able to do that part in Greek.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

RandallButh
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by RandallButh » August 9th, 2015, 2:11 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:Incidentally, I will almost certainly discuss the syntax in these two sentences tomorrow, and discuss them in English:

Κύριε, ἐπίτρεψόν μοι ἀπελθόντι πρῶτον θάψαι τὸν πατέρα μου.
Ἄφες τοὺς νεκροὺς θάψαι τοὺς ἑαυτῶν νεκρούς, σὺ δὲ ἀπελθὼν διάγγελλε τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

The use of the aorist participle for "go and", the agreement between μοι and ἀπελθόντι, and the nominative ἀπελθὼν with the same subject as διάγγελλε are all worth mentioning, and I don't think we can do that in Greek. I will probably postpone most of this for the time after the "in Greek" portion of the class.
Always ask yourself what is it that they need to know? Now. What would a six-year old need to know?
Then, for interesting extras that can be covered in 30-60 seconds, indulge yourselves in some English.

Always look for parallel things to say and do: ANASTHTE stand up, nowNYN AFIHMI YMAS KAQI'SAI .
ANASTHQI KAI PERIPA'TEI.
TI POIEI'? NAI, PERIPATEI'!
(ALLWi) AKOLOY'QEI TW PERIPATOY'NTI ANQRWPWi. AYTOS O DEYTEROS AKOLOYQEI' TWi PRWTWi TWi PERIPATOY'NTI, ktl.
OYTOS O MAQHTHS OYK AKOLOYQEI TH MAQHTRIAi TH KAQHMENHi EN TH KAQEDRA.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 9th, 2015, 6:17 am

RandallButh wrote:Always ask yourself what is it that they need to know? Now. What would a six-year old need to know?
A faint echo of a forgotten quote.

Abstract explanations like συντεταγμένη ἡ πρόθεσις "μετά" τῇ γενικῇ (πτώσῃ) δηλοῖ ἐπιῤῥηματικὴν σχῆσιν συνενώσεως ἢ συνυπάρξεως, while correct, might cause your students some degree of consternation.

συντεταγμένη (placing together with) ἡ πρόθεσις (preposition) "μετά" τῇ γενικῇ (with the geitive) (πτώσῃ (case)) δηλοῖ (signifies) ἐπιῤῥηματικὴν (an adverbial) σχῆσιν (relationship) συνενώσεως (of union) ἢ συνυπάρξεως (of coexistence).

Some thing like ἡ πρόθεσις "μετά" ἐννοῖ ὅτι οἱ δύο ἄνθρωποι συνέσηκαν ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ τόπῳ ἢ ποιοῦσιν τὸ αὐτὸ., sounds a bit childish, but it is much simpler.
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(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 9th, 2015, 7:52 am

RandallButh wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:Incidentally, I will almost certainly discuss the syntax in these two sentences tomorrow, and discuss them in English:

Κύριε, ἐπίτρεψόν μοι ἀπελθόντι πρῶτον θάψαι τὸν πατέρα μου.
Ἄφες τοὺς νεκροὺς θάψαι τοὺς ἑαυτῶν νεκρούς, σὺ δὲ ἀπελθὼν διάγγελλε τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

The use of the aorist participle for "go and", the agreement between μοι and ἀπελθόντι, and the nominative ἀπελθὼν with the same subject as διάγγελλε are all worth mentioning, and I don't think we can do that in Greek. I will probably postpone most of this for the time after the "in Greek" portion of the class.
Always ask yourself what is it that they need to know? Now. What would a six-year old need to know?
Then, for interesting extras that can be covered in 30-60 seconds, indulge yourselves in some English.
Good advice. In this class, participles aren't the language objective, most don't know that much about participles, and this is not the place to start. There are a few people who have a good basic grasp on participles, but may not be solid on morphology or the use of cases - I'd like to explain this at a very high level for each group, without trying to teach participles in any depth.
RandallButh wrote:Always look for parallel things to say and do: ANASTHTE stand up, nowNYN AFIHMI YMAS KAQI'SAI .
ANASTHQI KAI PERIPA'TEI.
TI POIEI'? NAI, PERIPATEI'!
(ALLWi) AKOLOY'QEI TW PERIPATOY'NTI ANQRWPWi. AYTOS O DEYTEROS AKOLOYQEI' TWi PRWTWi TWi PERIPATOY'NTI, ktl.
OYTOS O MAQHTHS OYK AKOLOYQEI TH MAQHTRIAi TH KAQHMENHi EN TH KAQEDRA.
This is great advice when it's time to make really teaching participles the language objective.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Barry Hofstetter » August 9th, 2015, 8:44 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:I could use some help with questions. When I think like a teacher, I look at the different parts of the sentence and what should be emphasized, and try to turn that into questions. But I'm not at all used to writing Greek questions, and I haven't read a lot of questions in the literature, so I currently wind up writing a lot of my questions in English, then translating them. I suspect that shows badly in places. I'm also not used to formally teaching Greek at all, we've done reading groups rather than language instruction, so I'm not sure the right questions occur to me.

Here's the first section for tomorrow:
ὁ διηγούμενος:

Καὶ πορευομένων αὐτῶν ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ εἶπέν τις πρὸς αὐτόν·

ἄνθρωπός τις:

Ἀκολουθήσω σοι ὅπου ἐὰν ἀπέρχῃ.

ὁ Ἰησοῦς:

Αἱ ἀλώπεκες φωλεοὺς ἔχουσιν
καὶ τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ κατασκηνώσεις,
ὁ δὲ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἔχει ποῦ τὴν κεφαλὴν κλίνῃ.
Here are some questions for this section - can they be improved? What other questions are worth asking?
  • ποῦ πορεύεσθαι τῶν μαθητῶν;
  • τινές εισιν ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ;
  • πρὸς τίνα εἶπέν ὁ ἄνθρωπος;
  • ὅπου ἀκολουθήσει ὁ ἄνθρωπος τόν Ἰησοῦν;
  • τί ἔχουσιν αἱ ἀλώπεκες; κατασκηνώσεις ἢ φωλεοὺς;
  • τί ἔχουσιν τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ; κατασκηνώσεις ἢ φωλεοὺς;
  • ἔχουσιν αἱ ἀλώπεκες φωλεοὺς; ναί ἢ οὔ;
  • ἔχουσιν αἱ ἀλώπεκες κατασκηνώσεις; ναί ἢ οὔ;
  • τίς ἐστιν ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου;
  • ποῦ κλινεῖ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου;
Hey, Jonathan, I have nothing to add about your approach, which is excellent, but check the syntax on some of your questions, e.g.,

ποῦ πορεύεσθαι τῶν μαθητῶν;

Why not ποῦ πορεύονται οἱ μαθηταί

And remember that ἀκολουθέω normally takes the dative.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 9th, 2015, 9:05 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Hey, Jonathan, I have nothing to add about your approach, which is excellent, but check the syntax on some of your questions, e.g.,

ποῦ πορεύεσθαι τῶν μαθητῶν;

Why not ποῦ πορεύονται οἱ μαθηταί

And remember that ἀκολουθέω normally takes the dative.
Thanks - getting the grammar right in these questions is still hard for me, I haven't done much composition, so I'm grateful for any proofchecking.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 9th, 2015, 10:32 am

In the models you have taken for ὅπου ἀκολουθήσει ὁ ἄνθρωπος τόν Ἰησοῦν; the question is formed with the Τίς (John 7:32), Ποῦ (John 13:36), Μήτι (John 8:22), or Ἐὰν (John 12:26) at the very front. The ὅπου is a relative introducing the subordinate adverbial relative clause of place.

Simply put: You should Ποῦ for the question, not ὅπου.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 10th, 2015, 8:33 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:In the models you have taken for ὅπου ἀκολουθήσει ὁ ἄνθρωπος τόν Ἰησοῦν; the question is formed with the Τίς (John 7:32), Ποῦ (John 13:36), Μήτι (John 8:22), or Ἐὰν (John 12:26) at the very front. The ὅπου is a relative introducing the subordinate adverbial relative clause of place.

Simply put: You should Ποῦ for the question, not ὅπου.
Thanks, you're clearly right. BDAG is very clear on this. Incidentally, here's a nice example illustrating the relationship between ποῦ and ὅπου:
Luke 22:11 wrote:καὶ ἐρεῖτε τῷ οἰκοδεσπότῃ τῆς οἰκίας· Λέγει σοι ὁ διδάσκαλος· Ποῦ ἐστιν τὸ κατάλυμα ὅπου τὸ πάσχα μετὰ τῶν μαθητῶν μου φάγω;
I've just started writing notes on asking good questions in Greek, aimed at helping people understand a text via oral or written responses. I'll be asking more questions and keeping track of this kind of thing. When I have something worth sharing, I'll share it.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 10th, 2015, 10:13 am

If you want another obvious one:
Jonathan Robie wrote:ποῦ κλινεῖ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου;
If κλινεῖ were taken as the verb "rest", it would be the "rest" that meant "the broom was resting up against the wall". "Rest" as in "sleep" could be καθεύδειν. "Rest" as in "chill out" (which could involve sleeping), might be ἀναπαύεσθαι. Probably the closest synonym to the phrase used here - τὴν κεφαλὴν κλίνειν - would be καθεύδειν "sleep" (in short), or οὔτε ἔχειν προσκεφάλαιον καὶ ἡ γῆ ψυχρά ἐστιν. "to not have a pillow when the ground is cold" (cf. John 4:11).

In short, κλινεῖ can't be used to abbreviate τὴν κεφαλὴν κλίνειν, you need to paraphrase or use the phrase in full.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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