Help me teach this class

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 14th, 2015, 5:24 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:βλέπω εἰς τὰ πρός.
...
βλέπετε εἰς τὰ πρός!
I suggest you check out Louw and Nida Section 83.33
Jonathan Robie wrote:οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι ἀποτάσσεις
Don't over do the pronouns. There is no need to have a verbal form wherein the person doing what is permitted is explicated. It is understood well enough from the dative pronoun.
Jonathan Robie wrote:ἐπιβάλλω τὴν χεῖρα ἐπί βιβλίον
There is a forcefulness of action in "seizing", "grabbing and holding on tight to", that you may or may not want to include in your acting it out.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 14th, 2015, 6:17 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι ἀποτάσσεις
Don't over do the pronouns. There is no need to have a verbal form wherein the person doing what is permitted is explicated. It is understood well enough from the dative pronoun.
Are you saying you would prefer:
οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι ἀποτάξασθαι;
If so, I agree. It's closer to the text:
πρῶτον δὲ ἐπίτρεψόν μοι ἀποτάξασθαι τοῖς εἰς τὸν οἶκόν μου.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 14th, 2015, 6:29 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
RandallButh wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:I don't have any great ideas for introducing εὔθετός without just giving the English word. Anyone have any useful ideas for this?
Try a children's puzzle where the cut-out pieces of fruit or animals are different shapes and then place one where it is εὔθετος and then another where it is not. A jigsaw puzzle could also work, but they are small pieces for showing a number of people at once.
Ah - we have plenty of that kind of thing in surrounding Sunday School classes! That could work.
The antonym "ἀνεύθετος" might be useful in your game, to describe pieces that could be used later as the puzzle progressed. ἴσως ὕστερον "perhaps later". The pieces might be κομμάτιον because they have been cut out. "Place!" is θὲς / θέτε.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 14th, 2015, 6:36 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:Are you saying you would prefer:
οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι ἀποτάξασθαι
The infinitive, yes.

An infinitive is used in some cases, when the subject is supplied from context.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Louis L Sorenson
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Louis L Sorenson » August 15th, 2015, 11:23 am

Do we really know what this word (αποτασσω) entails?
Jonathan wrote:
Would waving good-bye be reasonable for ἀποτάξασθαι?

ἀποτάσσω. (waving hand good-bye, then turning around to leave)
ἀποτάσσετε!
(picking a victim) οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι ἀποτάσσεις!

Make sure to use the middle for this word in a departing context.
Jonathan wrote
Are you saying you would prefer:
οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι ἀποτάξασθαι;
If so, I agree. It's closer to the text:
BDAG is a little unclear active vs middle
① to express a formal farewell, say farewell (to), take leave (of) τινί (Vi. Aesopi G 124 P.; POxy 298, 31 [I A.D.]; BGU 884 II, 12 [II/III A.D.]; Jos., Ant. 8, 354; s. Nageli 39; in pap most freq. in sense of bidding farewell, s. Wilcken on PBrem 16, 12; so also Jos., Ant. 11, 345; opp. POxy 1669, 4) τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς Ac 18:18. αὐτοῖς 2 Cor 2:13. τοῖς εἰς τ. οἶκόν μου to my people at home Lk 9:61; cp. Mk 6:46. (Opp. ἀκολουθεῖν τινι.) τ. ἀγγέλῳ τ. πονηρίας say farewell to the angel of wickedness Hm 6, 2, 9. τῷ βίῳ to life IPhld 11:1 (cp. Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/3 p. 136, 17). Abs. Ac 18:21; 21:15 D.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 123). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.



LSJ is clearer:
ἀποτάσσω, Att. -ττω, set apart, assign specially, χώραν τινί Pl.Tht.153e; detach soldiers, Plb.6.35.3, etc......
.....
IV. Med, ἀποτάσσομαί τινι bid adieu to a person, part from them, Ev.Luc.9.61, Act.Ap.18.21, Ev.Marc.6.46, J.AJ11.8.6, BGU884 ii 14 (ii/iii A.D.), Aesop.64, Lib.Decl.45.28; have done with, get rid of a person, POxy.298.31 (i A.D.); ἀ. τῷ βίῳ commit suicide, Cat.Cod.Astr.8(3).136.17: also c. dat. rei, renounce, give up, τοῖς ἑαυτοῦ ὑπάρχουσιν Ev.Luc.14.33; τροφῇ J.AJ11.6.8; ταῖς μίξεσι, of the Vestals, Sor.1.32; πάθεσι Ph.1.116, cf. Iamb.VP3.13, Phryn.15.
Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 222). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

The hard part about developing curriculum, is that you will often find you have been using the wrong form for a while. This has happened to me many times. In such cases, just say, "this form is better." No need to beat up on yourself for honest mistakes.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 15th, 2015, 12:13 pm

Louis L Sorenson wrote:Make sure to use the middle for this word in a departing context.
Thanks - here's my working version:

εἶπεν δὲ καὶ ἕτερος· Ἀκολουθήσω σοι, κύριε· πρῶτον δὲ ἐπίτρεψόν μοι ἀποτάξασθαι τοῖς εἰς τὸν οἶκόν μου.

I plan to have them read this first part, then act out the following:
  1. ἀποτάσσομαί.
  2. ἀποτάσσεσθε! / ἀποτάσσου! (eg ἀποτάσσου τῷ Παύλῳ!)
  3. ἀποτάσσω καί πορεύομαι.
  4. ἀποτάσσεσθε καί πορεύεσθε! / ἀποτάσσου καί πορεύου!
  5. πρῶτος ἀποτάσσεσθε, δεύτερος πορεύεσθε! / πρῶτος ἀποτάσσου, δεύτερος πορεύου!
  6. οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι πορεύεσθαι!
  7. οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω σοι ἀποτάξασθαι!
Better?

I then plan to have them read the text out loud once again (with better comprehension), then ask them these questions:
  1. πρὸς τίνα εἶπεν ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἕτερος;
  2. θέλει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀκολουθεῖν τῷ Ἰησοῦ;
  3. τίνι θέλει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀποτάξασθαι; ( μου → αὐτὸν)
  4. τί θέλει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ποιῆσαι πρῶτον;
Then on to the next section, in the same manner. First read the text:

εἶπεν δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Οὐδεὶς ἐπιβαλὼν τὴν χεῖρα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον καὶ βλέπων εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω εὔθετός ἐστιν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ.

Then play with the vocabulary:
  1. βλέπω εἰς τὰ πρός.
  2. βλέπω εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω.
  3. βλέπετε εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω!
  4. βλέπετε εἰς τὰ πρός!
  5. βλέπω εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω ἢ εἰς τὰ πρός;
  6. ἐπιβάλλω τὴν χεῖρα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον. (Putting my hand on the picture on the first page.)
  7. ἐπιβάλλω τὴν χεῖρα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον καὶ βλέπω εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω.
  8. ἐπιβάλλω τὴν χεῖρα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον καὶ βλέπω εἰς τὰ πρός.
  9. ἐπιβάλλετε τὴν χεῖρα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον καὶ βλέπετε εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω!
  10. ἐπιβάλλετε τὴν χεῖρα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον καὶ βλέπετε εἰς τὰ πρός!
  11. ἐπιβάλλω τὴν χεῖρα ἐπί βιβλίον.
  12. ἐπιβάλλετε τὴν χεῖρα ἐπί βιβλίον καὶ βλέπετε εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω!
Then I'll get some jars and lids out and play with:
  • οὐκ εὔθετός ἐστιν / εὔθετός ἐστιν / εὔθετός ἐστιν;
Then reread the text in Greek and follow up with some questions. Except ... at this point, the basic questions in Greek are no longer that helpful for this part of the text, can you think of any really good ones? If not, I might just switch to English at this point and discuss how the two halves fit together.

Update: Here are a few ...
  1. πρὸς τίνα εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς;
  2. ἐπιβάλλει τὸν πόδα ἐπ’ ἄροτρον; ναί ἢ οὔ;
  3. τί ἐπιβάλλει ἐπ’ ἄροτρον; (τὸν πόδα ἢ τὴν χεῖρα;)
  4. τίς ἐστιν εὔθετός τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ - ὁ βλέπων εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω ἢ ὁ βλέπων εἰς τὰ πρός;

The right questions to ask at this point are things like: In what sense is putting your hand to the plow and looking back similar to what the man was saying? What ways do we do this in our own lives? How do the everyday responsibilities we have fit in with our calling? And I'm not sure we can do that in Greek ... which is why I really like combining simple exercises in Greek (to get the basic understanding in an immersive environment) with adult-level discussion in English (the stuff we go to Sunday school for).
Louis L Sorenson wrote:The hard part about developing curriculum, is that you will often find you have been using the wrong form for a while. This has happened to me many times. In such cases, just say, "this form is better." No need to beat up on yourself for honest mistakes.
Absolutely - and that's why I'm posting things here even though I know I'm making plenty of mistakes. I want to learn how to do this well, and I appreciate all the corrections. Since I haven't done much composition at all, this is a baptism by fire for me.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Louis L Sorenson
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Louis L Sorenson » August 15th, 2015, 5:03 pm

βλέπω εἰς τὰ πρός.
I've been trying to find instances of εἰς τὰ πρός and cannot find them. Perhaps in the meaning of 'the stuff with me' , but not opposite εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω. Perhaps the word πόρρω (cf. LSJ πόρρω, -ωθεν, -ωτέρω, v. πρόσω, πρόσωθεν, etc.) would be a better word fit.

So βλέπω εἰς τὰ πόρρω. (πόρρω is derived from πρός + ω, cf. πρόσω, just like κάτω, ἄνω.)

LSJ
I. of Place, generally with a notion of motion, forwards, onwards, π. ἄγειν, φέρειν, Il.18.388, Od.9.542, etc.; [δοῦρα] ὄρμενα πρόσσω Il.11.572; ἵπποι πρόσσω μεμαυῖαι ib. 615; πρόσω ἵεσθε 12.274, etc.; π. πᾶς πέτεται 16.265; π. κατέκυψε ib. 611; π. ἀΐξας 17.734; π. τετραμμένος αἰεί ib. 598; νέμεσθαι π. Hdt.3.133; παραγγεῖλαι, πέμψαι π., A.Ag.294, 853; βῆναι, ἕρπειν π., S.Tr.195, 547; μὴ πόρσω φωνεῖν speak no further, Id.El.213 (lyr.); μηκέτι πάπταινε πόρσιον Pi.O.1.114: with Art., πορεύεσθαι αἰεὶ τὸ πρόσω Hdt.7.30, cf. 9.57; also ἰέναι τοῦ π. X.An.1.3.1; ἤϊε αἰεὶ ἐς τὸ π. Hdt.3.25.
...............
II. of Distance, far off, παπταίνειν τὰ πόρσω Pi.P.3.22.......
3. in front, τὰ π. μέρη Gal.16.680, cf. 15.141, 18(2).265

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 1532). Oxford: Clarendon Press.
Just an idea.
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mwpalmer
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by mwpalmer » August 15th, 2015, 7:42 pm

I've been out of the country for the last three weeks, and it's been pretty hard to find the time to participate in this discussion, but I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through your preparation for tomorrow's class and the stellar comments you've gotten from others.

I have one small suggestion to add, plus some thoughts on expressing the opposite of εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω. (Thanks to Louis for raising this issue.)

The answer choices for the following question would be best stated in the dative case:

τίνι θέλει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀποτάξασθαι;
(μοί, σοί, αὐτῷ)

Ι enjoyed Louis' discussion of options for expressing the opposite of εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω. Here are some further thoughts on that topic. πόρρω appears in the NT, but not with the desired sense. See Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6 and Luke 14:32 and 24:28 where it is used in reference to distance rather than direction. Still, in the wider literature it has the directional sense you are looking for when a destination is stated in the genitive case. It implies motion toward some place, or movement forward in time. So clearly it can have the implication you need for this lesson. I could not find any clear examples where it had this sense with no destination stated, but I would not be at all surprised to find one later.

The forms πόρρω, πρόσω, and πόρσω are all found in the wider literature with the same range of implications.

When you get to illustrating (acting out) this contrast between πόρρω and ὀπίσω I would suggest that you place your hand firmly ἐπ’ ἄροτρον (on the picture) when you say εἰς τὰ πόρρω, but lift it slightly ἀπ᾽ ἀρότρου when you say εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω and look back. This will help convey the implication of βλέπων εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω as "abandoning the task."
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Micheal W. Palmer

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 16th, 2015, 7:24 am

Questioning and answering is one of the many skills needed for effective communication, and so is asking / demanding - both of which you are doing. Some students tend to gravitate towards one mode of communication or another. While you may be developing your skills in questioning at the moment, your students may benefit from descriptions of some sort at the same time.

Something like ἐπιλαβεῖν ἐκτεινίζειν τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ "extend his hand (away from the body)" ἁπλοῖν τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ "extend his hand (unclench his fists)" ἐπιβαλεῖν τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τῆς λαβῆς τοῦ ἀρότρου "place his hand upon the handle of the plough" κρατεῖ τὸ ἄροτρον "grasp the plow".

For turning the head (close up of the action) use στρέφειν, and for turning to give attention to something (a picture of the action that includes more in it) use ἐπιστρέφειν.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Help me teach this class

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 16th, 2015, 9:05 am

Thanks, Micheal and Louis, εἰς τὰ πόρρω is the winner here.
τίνι θέλει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀποτάξασθαι; (μου → αὐτὸν)
I didn't explain my notation, I'm asking them to answer a question about this text:

πρῶτον δὲ ἐπίτρεψόν μοι ἀποτάξασθαι τοῖς εἰς τὸν οἶκόν μου.

I added a hint about modifying the pronoun - the answer is not τοῖς εἰς τὸν οἶκόν μου, it is τοῖς εἰς τὸν οἶκόν αὐτὸν.
mwpalmer wrote:τίνι θέλει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀποτάξασθαι;
(μοί, σοί, αὐτῷ)
I think your comment is due to unclarity of what my notation meant. Adding this kind of prompt is a great idea for τίς / τίνος / τίνι / τίνα questions in general, though - in general, I think anything that reinforces the cases as they apply to nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and interrogatives together is useful, and that's a nice reminder. Since they are searching for τοῖς εἰς τὸν οἶκόν μου, maybe I'll add that to the list: (μοί, σοί, αὐτῷ, τοίς)
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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