Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Textbooks, Graded Readers, Beginner Resources and links, Teaching aids, etc.
Andrew Chapman
Posts: 258
Joined: February 5th, 2013, 5:04 am
Location: Oxford, England
Contact:

Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman » December 18th, 2014, 11:21 am

Rodney Decker designed his Koine Greek Reader for use in the classroom. He asks questions but does not always give an answer, or he may just give a hint. After a recent post in which I had asked a question arising from this same book, I was contacted by another B-Greek member who is getting the same book. I suggested that it might be helpful to have a dedicated thread (or sub-folder?) for those working through it, and he thought that a dedicated thread was a good idea. Some questions seem too minor to justify a thread of their own, such as the following, so perhaps a single thread would work, subject to the moderator's advice.

ὁ δὲ θεὸς πάσης χάριτος, ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν ἐν Χριστῷ ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει. [1 Peter 5.10]

Decker asks (2007, p.89):
What word does the final string of verbs (παθόντας, καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει) assume as their object?
I would have said that ὑμᾶς is the object of all the verbs except παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action. Am I missing something?

Andrew
0 x



Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 18th, 2014, 12:17 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:ὁ δὲ θεὸς πάσης χάριτος, ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν ἐν Χριστῷ ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει. [1 Peter 5.10]

Decker asks (2007, p.89):
What word does the final string of verbs (παθόντας, καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει) assume as their object?
I would have said that ὑμᾶς is the object of all the verbs except παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action. Am I missing something?
I guess it is a misprint. παθόντας (πάσχειν) is intransitive here and shouldn't be in the list.
Andrew Chapman wrote:παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action.
What case is παθόντας? cf. πάσχοντες
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Andrew Chapman
Posts: 258
Joined: February 5th, 2013, 5:04 am
Location: Oxford, England
Contact:

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman » December 18th, 2014, 2:21 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Andrew Chapman wrote:ὁ δὲ θεὸς πάσης χάριτος, ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν ἐν Χριστῷ ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει. [1 Peter 5.10]

Decker asks (2007, p.89):
What word does the final string of verbs (παθόντας, καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει) assume as their object?
I would have said that ὑμᾶς is the object of all the verbs except παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action. Am I missing something?
I guess it is a misprint. παθόντας (πάσχειν) is intransitive here and shouldn't be in the list.
Andrew Chapman wrote:παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action.
What case is παθόντας? cf. πάσχοντες
Thanks, Stephen, for clarifying that. It is accusative because it is agreeing with ὑμᾶς, which is accusative because it is the object of καλέσας. παθόντας is active voice - I realise that exactly what that means with an intransitive verb is less than obvious - but nevertheless they are the ones who have suffered. If it was expressed with an indicative verb, I think it would be ἐπάθετε, in which case they would be the grammatical subject. I looked up what one calls the 'subject' of a participle, and found the terms 'understood subject' and 'doer of the action', and so went for those, but would be happy to be corrected or have it put in a better way.

Andrew
0 x

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 19th, 2014, 12:25 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:Rodney Decker designed his Koine Greek Reader for use in the classroom.
Most classroom books are of some value to individuals as well. It is amazing what you can scrounge up from various commentaries, grammars and other aids.
Andrew Chapman wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Andrew Chapman wrote:παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action.
What case is παθόντας? cf. πάσχοντες
Thanks, Stephen, for clarifying that. It is accusative because it is agreeing with ὑμᾶς, which is accusative because it is the object of καλέσας. παθόντας is active voice - I realise that exactly what that means with an intransitive verb is less than obvious - but nevertheless they are the ones who have suffered. If it was expressed with an indicative verb, I think it would be ἐπάθετε, in which case they would be the grammatical subject. I looked up what one calls the 'subject' of a participle, and found the terms 'understood subject' and 'doer of the action', and so went for those, but would be happy to be corrected or have it put in a better way.
I've never really understood the word, "agreeing with". The ones suffering παθόντας are the ὑμᾶς. The participle doesn't mark number, but it just as every bit 2nd person as the pronoun, he's just making some point about them clear.

I have only convoluted imaginings about the subject of participles - it's beyond my grammar - so far as I know, it is the subject or object, sorry.

I'm not sure why you've got that in the aorist? ἐπάθετε would most likely refer to a completed action. I think the verb might be ὑπομένετε ("Endure!"). That seems to be the verb that is used of people when they are in suffering, but if we want to look back on it, or encapsulate the action in a thought then we would use ἐπάθετε, as you suggested. Also if you were talking about other people in a general sense (at a distance) that would be a good word to use.

I suggest that ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς ... ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει is a good place to get fuzzy-focused about the grammar. I mean that, rather than thinking about the "understood subject" in strict analytical terms, you could imagine like a company taking on new staff. "The company hiring us have undertaken to train, cloth, equip and supervise (us)." There is also a question as to whether the αὐτὸς is making it grammatically clear that ὁ καλέσας is repeated, or it is clear in terms of sense that αὐτὸς means he and nobody else will do those things.

If we want to stretch possibilities, we could wonder (just for a moment perhaps) whether ὀλίγον παθόντας is aorist with ὁ καλέσας or with καταρτίσει etc. "The one who called us after we had suffered a little while", or "he himself will ... (us) after we have suffered for just a short while". That has to do with your statement "but nevertheless they are the ones who have suffered", which I would rephrase as "but nevertheless they are the ones who will have suffered".
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Andrew Chapman
Posts: 258
Joined: February 5th, 2013, 5:04 am
Location: Oxford, England
Contact:

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman » December 19th, 2014, 2:30 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: I'm not sure why you've got that in the aorist? ἐπάθετε would most likely refer to a completed action.
Good point, kept it aorist without thinking about it.
I suggest that ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς ... ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει is a good place to get fuzzy-focused about the grammar.
Yes, I read it in a fuzzy way. But Rodney Decker asked me an analytical question about it, and I wanted to check that there was an erratum in the book, rather than that I was missing something.
If we want to stretch possibilities, we could wonder (just for a moment perhaps) whether ὀλίγον παθόντας is aorist with ὁ καλέσας or with καταρτίσει etc.
I read the calling as being in the past, the suffering as ongoing and continuing a little longer into the future (from which future point it is conceived as a completed work), and the futures seem to convey a certainty about the end result. I understand the aorist participles to be fuzzy, as you put it, with regard to time - they adjust to allow a good sense. The futures do more in themselves to give a definite time sense, as I understand it.

With regard to stretching possibilities, how about taking ἐν Χριστῷ with ὀλίγον παθόντας rather than with τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν? Somehow I feel that it is the article that makes one take it with δόξαν, but I am not 100% sure.

Andrew
0 x

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 924
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » December 19th, 2014, 3:42 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:Rodney Decker designed his Koine Greek Reader for use in the classroom. He asks questions but does not always give an answer, or he may just give a hint. After a recent post in which I had asked a question arising from this same book, I was contacted by another B-Greek member who is getting the same book. I suggested that it might be helpful to have a dedicated thread (or sub-folder?) for those working through it, and he thought that a dedicated thread was a good idea. Some questions seem too minor to justify a thread of their own, such as the following, so perhaps a single thread would work, subject to the moderator's advice.

ὁ δὲ θεὸς πάσης χάριτος, ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν ἐν Χριστῷ ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει. [1 Peter 5.10]

Decker asks (2007, p.89):
What word does the final string of verbs (παθόντας, καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει) assume as their object?
I would have said that ὑμᾶς is the object of all the verbs except παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action. Am I missing something?

Andrew
Perhaps the late R. Decker ThD. was thinking about semantic roles agent/patient or experiencer rather than a grammatical direct object. ὑμᾶς with παθόντας would experience. The subject is affected placing it in a semantic role similar but not identical to the direct object of a transitive verb.
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Andrew Chapman
Posts: 258
Joined: February 5th, 2013, 5:04 am
Location: Oxford, England
Contact:

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman » December 19th, 2014, 5:00 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: Perhaps the late R. Decker ThD. was thinking about semantic roles agent/patient or experiencer rather than a grammatical direct object. ὑμᾶς with παθόντας would experience. The subject is affected placing it in a semantic role similar but not identical to the direct object of a transitive verb.
Just the other day, I came across Carl Conrad's comments on πάσχω, in his 'New observations on voice in the ancient Greek verb', p.3:
.. some verbs with "active" morphoparadigms may even bear an authentic passive sense; for example, ... the usage of πάσχω is almost uncanny in that it can take a direct object and an agent construction and bear passive sense so that δεινὰ ὑπὸ τῶν ἐχθρῶν μου ἔπαθον = "I was made to suffer terrible things by my enemies;”
Andrew
0 x

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 19th, 2014, 11:46 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:With regard to stretching possibilities, how about taking ἐν Χριστῷ with ὀλίγον παθόντας rather than with τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν? Somehow I feel that it is the article that makes one take it with δόξαν, but I am not 100% sure.
Plausible, but let me get two-year-old for a moment about the phrasing of your question, I see ἐν Χριστῷ taken to the left as with ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς balance across εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν. If taken to the right ἐν Χριστῷ would be taken with παθόντας, balanced across ὀλίγον.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on December 20th, 2014, 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 20th, 2014, 12:05 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
Andrew Chapman wrote:ὁ δὲ θεὸς πάσης χάριτος, ὁ καλέσας ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον αὐτοῦ δόξαν ἐν Χριστῷ ὀλίγον παθόντας αὐτὸς καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει. [1 Peter 5.10]
Decker asks (2007, p.89) wrote:What word does the final string of verbs (παθόντας, καταρτίσει, στηρίξει, σθενώσει, θεμελιώσει) assume as their object?
I would have said that ὑμᾶς is the object of all the verbs except παθόντας, of which it is the understood subject/doer of the action. Am I missing something?
Perhaps the late R. Decker ThD. was thinking about semantic roles agent/patient or experiencer rather than a grammatical direct object. ὑμᾶς with παθόντας would experience. The subject is affected placing it in a semantic role similar but not identical to the direct object of a transitive verb.
So, in that understanding, what would the assumed object of all five verbs be?
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 20th, 2014, 10:38 am

Andrew Chapman wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:If we want to stretch possibilities, we could wonder (just for a moment perhaps) whether ὀλίγον παθόντας is aorist with ὁ καλέσας or with καταρτίσει etc.
I read the calling as being in the past, the suffering as ongoing and continuing a little longer into the future (from which future point it is conceived as a completed work), and the futures seem to convey a certainty about the end result. I understand the aorist participles to be fuzzy, as you put it, with regard to time - they adjust to allow a good sense. The futures do more in themselves to give a definite time sense, as I understand it.
Twenty years ago when I finished all the grammar classes at University, I could have given you definitive answers about grammar, now I'm not so sure. The way I learnt Greek than was not a bad way, but it has required many small readjustments over the years. The strict prescriptivism and simple explanations have usually proved to only ever be partially true and applicable to most but not all situations.

This is not something that I feel qualified to answer.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Post Reply