Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

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cwconrad
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by cwconrad » December 24th, 2014, 5:30 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:2) [continuing with the idea of a single thread, to deal with minor points arising from this excellent and very useful book]

ἀθέτησις μὲν γὰρ γίνεται προαγούσης ἐντολῆς διὰ τὸ αὐτῆς ἀσθενὲς καὶ ἀνωφελές– [Hebrews 7.18]

Rodney Decker (p. 109) says that 'The predicate of γίνεται consists of the causal phrase (δία ...).'

I would have said that γίνεται is intransitive, and that διὰ τὸ αὐτῆς ἀσθενὲς καὶ ἀνωφελές is an adverbial prepositional phrase modifying it. I think that together they form the predicate, the subject being ἀθέτησις προαγούσης ἐντολῆς. Is that wrong?
I'd say this is a rhetorical reformulation of something like ἀθετεῖται ἐντολὴ προάγουσα ... That is to say, the subject is a verbal noun and the verb γίνεται here means "takes place."
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Andrew Chapman
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman » January 8th, 2015, 9:54 am

Thanks, Carl, much appreciated.

[3. Koine Greek Reader, p. 143]

τότε ἐλάλησεν ἰησοῦς πρὸς κύριον ᾗ ἡμέρᾳ παρέδωκεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν αμορραῖον ὑποχείριον ισραηλ ἡνίκα συνέτριψεν αὐτοὺς ἐν γαβαων καὶ συνετρίβησαν ἀπὸ προσώπου υἱῶν ισραηλ.. [Joshua 10.12a]

Rodney Decker writes: 'The phrase παρέδωκεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν αμορραῖον ὑποχείριον ισραηλ sounds clumsy in formal English translation: "God delivered the subordinate Amorite to Israel"; it is often translated, "God delivered the Amorite into the hand of Israel" - which reflects the Hebrew text better than LXX.

Surely, since ὑποχείριον is in predicate position, it makes sense as it is: 'God delivered the Amorite [to be] under the hand of Israel', or somesuch.

Andrew
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » January 8th, 2015, 4:04 pm

Surely, since ὑποχείριον is in predicate position, it makes sense as it is: 'God delivered the Amorite [to be] under the hand of Israel', or somesuch.
Thus - τὸν Αμορραῖον [εἶναι] ὑποχείριον Ισραηλ – with ὑποχείριον as an accusative predicate object opposite τὸν Αμορραῖον, and the whole phrase as the object of παρέδωκεν??
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman » January 8th, 2015, 5:04 pm

Yes, except that what I had in mind was that one doesn't need [εἶναι] in Greek, because I think the predicate position may convey what is needed; whereas in English we seem to need something and [to be] was the best I could do.

Andrew
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » January 9th, 2015, 2:22 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:Rodney Decker writes: 'The phrase παρέδωκεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν αμορραῖον ὑποχείριον ισραηλ sounds clumsy in formal English translation: "God delivered the subordinate Amorite to Israel"; it is often translated, "God delivered the Amorite into the hand of Israel" - which reflects the Hebrew text better than LXX.

Surely, since ὑποχείριον is in predicate position, it makes sense as it is: 'God delivered the Amorite [to be] under the hand of Israel', or somesuch.
After scratching around trying to find the basis for Decker's "God delivered the subordinate Amorite to Israel", I'm with you on "Surely ...". I cannot understand why Decker would read ὑποχείριον as a simple attributive, and while he says:
it is often translated, "God delivered the Amorite into the hand of Israel"

I cannot find a single instance of his translation ("subordinate Amorite") outside of his Reader.
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman » January 9th, 2015, 2:33 pm

Thanks, Thomas, that reassures me that I am not missing something obvious.

Andrew
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