Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

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cwconrad
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by cwconrad »

Andrew Chapman wrote:2) [continuing with the idea of a single thread, to deal with minor points arising from this excellent and very useful book]

ἀθέτησις μὲν γὰρ γίνεται προαγούσης ἐντολῆς διὰ τὸ αὐτῆς ἀσθενὲς καὶ ἀνωφελές– [Hebrews 7.18]

Rodney Decker (p. 109) says that 'The predicate of γίνεται consists of the causal phrase (δία ...).'

I would have said that γίνεται is intransitive, and that διὰ τὸ αὐτῆς ἀσθενὲς καὶ ἀνωφελές is an adverbial prepositional phrase modifying it. I think that together they form the predicate, the subject being ἀθέτησις προαγούσης ἐντολῆς. Is that wrong?
I'd say this is a rhetorical reformulation of something like ἀθετεῖται ἐντολὴ προάγουσα ... That is to say, the subject is a verbal noun and the verb γίνεται here means "takes place."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Andrew Chapman
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Thanks, Carl, much appreciated.

[3. Koine Greek Reader, p. 143]

τότε ἐλάλησεν ἰησοῦς πρὸς κύριον ᾗ ἡμέρᾳ παρέδωκεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν αμορραῖον ὑποχείριον ισραηλ ἡνίκα συνέτριψεν αὐτοὺς ἐν γαβαων καὶ συνετρίβησαν ἀπὸ προσώπου υἱῶν ισραηλ.. [Joshua 10.12a]

Rodney Decker writes: 'The phrase παρέδωκεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν αμορραῖον ὑποχείριον ισραηλ sounds clumsy in formal English translation: "God delivered the subordinate Amorite to Israel"; it is often translated, "God delivered the Amorite into the hand of Israel" - which reflects the Hebrew text better than LXX.

Surely, since ὑποχείριον is in predicate position, it makes sense as it is: 'God delivered the Amorite [to be] under the hand of Israel', or somesuch.

Andrew
Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

Surely, since ὑποχείριον is in predicate position, it makes sense as it is: 'God delivered the Amorite [to be] under the hand of Israel', or somesuch.
Thus - τὸν Αμορραῖον [εἶναι] ὑποχείριον Ισραηλ – with ὑποχείριον as an accusative predicate object opposite τὸν Αμορραῖον, and the whole phrase as the object of παρέδωκεν??
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Andrew Chapman
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Yes, except that what I had in mind was that one doesn't need [εἶναι] in Greek, because I think the predicate position may convey what is needed; whereas in English we seem to need something and [to be] was the best I could do.

Andrew
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

Andrew Chapman wrote:Rodney Decker writes: 'The phrase παρέδωκεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν αμορραῖον ὑποχείριον ισραηλ sounds clumsy in formal English translation: "God delivered the subordinate Amorite to Israel"; it is often translated, "God delivered the Amorite into the hand of Israel" - which reflects the Hebrew text better than LXX.

Surely, since ὑποχείριον is in predicate position, it makes sense as it is: 'God delivered the Amorite [to be] under the hand of Israel', or somesuch.
After scratching around trying to find the basis for Decker's "God delivered the subordinate Amorite to Israel", I'm with you on "Surely ...". I cannot understand why Decker would read ὑποχείριον as a simple attributive, and while he says:
it is often translated, "God delivered the Amorite into the hand of Israel"

I cannot find a single instance of his translation ("subordinate Amorite") outside of his Reader.
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Re: Koine Greek Reader, questions arising

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Thanks, Thomas, that reassures me that I am not missing something obvious.

Andrew
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