υ before ξ

υ before ξ

Postby Jordan Day » April 30th, 2012, 10:12 pm

I've been trying to transition to Buth's system for 2 weeks now, and I am having difficulty pronouncing the word τεῦξις. I assume the "υ" has the [v-victory] sound and not the [f-fight]. But I must be doing something wrong because it sounds like I am saying two separate words (guttural stop?). Tev-ksis . Please help!
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Louis L Sorenson » April 30th, 2012, 11:40 pm

ξ = κς. Both consonants are unvoiced (the vocal chords do not vibrate when making these sounds). So
I would expect that ευ would sound like εf. tefksis.
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Jordan Day » May 2nd, 2012, 9:41 pm

Louis L Sorenson wrote:ξ = κς. Both consonants are unvoiced (the vocal chords do not vibrate when making these sounds). So
I would expect that ευ would sound like εf. tefksis.


Ok. Thank you Louis. It is still difficult for my tongue, but I will practice this sound transition.
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Louis L Sorenson » May 2nd, 2012, 10:16 pm

I'm taking a stab at this from what I have observed. Perhaps Randall (or Nicolas Adamou - a modern Greek speaker) could chime in and give some examples.
Greek consonant structures are generally anticipatory. What that means is that a preceding consonant will sound like the following consonant (in regards to place of articulation and voicing). As seen in the perfect middle (μαι) and consonants following αυ/ευ .

αυτ = aft
αυδ = avdh
Before a θ (the marker of the passive), many voiced consonants become unvoiced. τέτακμαι = τέταγμαι vs τετάγθην = τετάχθην


But voicing tends to be persistent when ν/μ/λ/ρ (liquids) are involved and followed by an unvoiced stop (πτκ).

ντ = νδ (If you listen to Buth's audio, you hear this all the time, especially in present active participles).
ἐντος = ἐνdος or ἐνδος ?
νγ = γγ
νκ = γκ
νβ = μβ

Was μανθάνω pronounced μανδανω? I would not be surprised. Gignac's grammar of the Greek papyri helps out in trying to determine just how 1st century Greek speakers actually pronounced these words. I don't know a grammar that really discusses this in detail. What is hard is when the written does not match the spoken.


The opposite of anticipatory pronunciation is ??? (pervasive? not sure of the correct term) , where the following consonant/vowel takes on the voicing/coloring/place of production of the preceding vowel/consonant. Greek generally does not operate like that. Your question raises a number of issues. Perhaps we can say that voiced nasals (γγ, μ, ν) are both anticipatory and pervasive in voicing. Sounds which are hard to separate become assimilated to the following consonant in regards to place of articulation. Grimm's law of deaspiration (θιθ = τιθ, χεθ = κεθ, φιθ = πιθ, κλτ.) probably has a place in this discussion.
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Scott Lawson » May 3rd, 2012, 2:12 pm

Where does τεῦξις occur in the NT? I see it in my Middle Liddell but not in BDAG. ἔντευξις appears at 1 Tim 2:1 and 4:5. There ντ is softened to nd and aids in pronunciation. Would τεῦξις be from a prior era of pronunciation? BTW what happens to pronunciation when a consonantal vowel has an accent?

Jordan I find it helpful to pronounce the vee sound as in veinte (twenty) in Spanish which is between a hard vee and a bee ...almost like a "w".
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Scott Lawson » May 3rd, 2012, 2:46 pm

Jordan,
I'm also pronouncing τ as in Spanish where it is between the hard tee in English and the theta sound. The tongue doesn't get in the way as much as it transitions from τ to the "w" sound on the way to forming the guttural ksi. I hope this makes sense..
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Nikolaos Adamou » May 3rd, 2012, 3:27 pm

Θεοδοσίου Γραμματικοῦ ΠΕΡΙ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΙΚΗΣ
Theodosii Alexandrini GRAMMATICA
Lipsiae, CIDiDCCCXXII
page 37
provides detailed explanation
available in Google books free

αὔξω, afkso
αὐξι-φωτία, ἡ, afksifotia
αὔξω, afkso

the greek grammars published in Greece indicate tht
ΑΥ καὶ ΕΥ προφέρονται ΑΒ καὶ ΕΒ ὅταν ἀκολουθεῖ φωνήεν ἤ ἠχηρό σύμφωνο
ΑΥ καὶ ΕΥ προφέρονται ΑΦ καὶ ΕΦ ὅταν ἀκολουθεῖ ἄχηρο σύμφωνο

Reasons for turning the N into Γ
νγ = γγ
νκ = γκ
νβ = μβ
Ι think I have seen it some where, but been in the process of correcting quantitative business decisions exams, two weeks just before finals, I cannot search now.

D is like a κρᾶσις between NT that in Greek are pronounced as two different consonants, although, in dialects, even today you can hear the aeolic ND and not NT, but not ΝΔ, as
ἐντὸς - entos but not ἐνdος or ἐνδος

Also in syllabuses, a group of two or three consonants go together as long as a Greek word starts with them.

θ - TH as in THEOS / THEOLOGY and not μανθάνω as μανδανω - since θ and δ are distinctively different.

Also Louis, my name as in victory and people, Νίκη - Νίκος, Λαός = Νικόλαος thus Nikolaos, and not like the German Nikolaus, or as they call me at the seminary Nicholas or the way you put it in French.

Christ is Risen - Χριστὸς Ἀνέστη
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Scott Lawson » May 3rd, 2012, 4:10 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WocPnx7C ... ture=g-upl

Try that on for size and see if it works for you.
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Jordan Day » May 4th, 2012, 7:14 am

Scott Lawson wrote:Where does τεῦξις occur in the NT? I see it in my Middle Liddell but not in BDAG. ἔντευξις appears at 1 Tim 2:1 and 4:5. There ντ is softened to nd and aids in pronunciation. Would τεῦξις be from a prior era of pronunciation? BTW what happens to pronunciation when a consonantal vowel has an accent?

Jordan I find it helpful to pronounce the vee sound as in veinte (twenty) in Spanish which is between a hard vee and a bee ...almost like a "w".


Well, it does not occur in the NT, but when pronouncing ἔντευξις we would encounter the same problem. τεῦξις does occur in Plutarch, so I don't think we would be dealing with a prior era of pronunciation (Im sure there are plenty of words in the NT that have an "eu" diphthong preceding a "ks", this is just a word that I came across while trying to pick up speed with Buth's system and so it raised an immediate question). With Buth's system I am surprised at how most of the words come out of my mouth more smoothly (less wooden) than when using the Erasmian, so I was surprised to find a word that seems to be prounced much easier with the Erasmian "eu" than with Buth's...So I suspected there must be a special rule here.
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Re: υ before ξ

Postby Vasile Stancu » August 7th, 2012, 5:34 pm

What do you think: supposing that the correct prononciation is [tevksis] or [tefksis], would the ε in the original greek word be a short vowel, or a long one?
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