Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

MAubrey
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by MAubrey » August 2nd, 2011, 1:12 pm

Philemon Zachariou wrote:Incidentally, I am glad that you recommended Caragounis' work to Mike.
I already own it. I've read it three or four times and my copy has a thoroughly creased spine from reading. And I think Randall's criticisms are dead on and I could add a few of my own. Moises Silva, however, already said it all far better than I could in his review on Westminster Theological Journal Vol. 67, Page 389ff. For just one quote:
In seeking to determine how early the changes took place, Caragounis correctly focuses attention on orthographic variations (spelling “mistakes”) found in the inscriptions. Thus, for example, he gives a large number of 5th-4th century instances of interchange between ei and i, such as echis for echeis, attested in several regions (pp. 365-67; he includes a handful of instances even earlier than the 5th cent.). In my opinion, the evidence does support the view that the shift from the diphthongal sound ei to the monophthongal i had become generalized by early Hellenistic times, though even then it was not universal. Several other changes, with some qualifications, can similarly be dated to pre-NT times.
It is important to note, however, that the large number of examples reported in the footnotes on pp. 365-82 look more impressive than they really are. In the first place, spelling inconsistencies may be due to a variety of factors; Caragounis seems to assume that whenever there is an interchange of vowels it is evidence of phonological change (at least, he does not stop to consider other possibilities). Second, Caragounis seldom tells us where the inscriptions come from; the reader is thus unable to determine whether a particular change reflects a general, systemic development in the language or only an isolated phenomenon. Third, although a few very general comments on frequency are included, the reader is offered no statistics that might allow an accurate sense of proportions.
Westminster Theological Journal 67(399-400)
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Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

Philemon Zachariou
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by Philemon Zachariou » August 2nd, 2011, 3:25 pm

RandallButh wrote:
Attic Greek often used E for H and E.
This would suggest that H was not /i/ at that time. Do we have OMEROS spelled as such?
I haven't checked for this, it just seems like it would occur. Or SEMERON TEMERON.
All of these would support the common wisdom that E was used for both a short-time and long-time version of a mid-low front vowel in the pre 450 BCE era.
But if H were already /i/, then we would expect some TIMERON SIMERON spellings or OMIROS spellings frequently and early.
If these are not frequent and early, one must ask why not? We start getting lots of wild spellings in the post classical era, and again one must ask, where are the FREQUENT H=I misspellings like we have of EI=I.

Linguists would like an explanation of why EI=I is frequent and early, while H=I is not frequent and early. Standard wisdom dates the pervasive merger of EI and I to the 4 (or 3) century BCE.
-----------------

Randall, looking at your comment above, let me comment:

If Η in the mid-5th c. BC was pronounced the same as Ε(ε), then there would have been no need for the use of Η in place of the already existing letter Ε for the ε sound. At that point in time Η(=ι) was still in the process of being officially adopted into the alphabet. The timing fits with what Plato says in Κράτυλος about the confusion of H being used in place of EI or I. He did not say that the Athenians confused H with E, did he? Clearly, his poignant remark shows—and let's not lose sight of this—that Η was considered as iota Ι just as iota I was considered as ΕΙ . When the Athenians officially ratified their alphabet in 403 BC, Η was included as an sound, which helped dispel the confused use of Ε for Η, though not completely yet. One should not deduce from the above that in Plato's time H was [ε] rather than .

Ἔρρωσθε and Cheers,

Philemon Zachariou
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RandallButh
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by RandallButh » August 2nd, 2011, 9:11 pm

Randall, looking at your comment above, let me comment:

If Η in the mid-5th c. BC was pronounced the same as Ε(ε), then there would have been no need for the use of Η in place of the already existing letter Ε for the ε sound. At that point in time Η(=ι) was still in the process of being officially adopted into the alphabet. The timing fits with what Plato says in Κράτυλος about the confusion of H being used in place of EI or I. He did not say that the Athenians confused H with E, did he? Clearly, his poignant remark shows—and let's not lose sight of this—that Η was considered as iota Ι just as iota I was considered as ΕΙ . When the Athenians officially ratified their alphabet in 403 BC, Η was included as an sound, which helped dispel the confused use of Ε for Η, though not completely yet. One should not deduce from the above that in Plato's time H was [ε] rather than .

Ἔρρωσθε and Cheers,

Philemon Zachariou


actually, no one is suggesting that Hta was ever used for [ε]. In the pre-403 spelling system the H symbol was used for rough breathing. the innovation of 403 was to use it to mark a long low/mid front vowel, which was the long counterpart to E, but was not E.
Your argumentation is also a little curious:
"If Η in the mid-5th c. BC was pronounced the same as Ε(ε), then there would have been no need for the use of Η in place of the already existing letter Ε for the ε sound. "
There was also no need for another /i/ symbol since they already had two [EI and I]. So why in the world would a new symbol need to be invented?

The question for any analysis to answer is why EI and I were often confused from the 4cBCE on, but H was relatively stable and only started to be regularly confused with EI and I after the 2cCE?

ERRWSO
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by Ken M. Penner » August 3rd, 2011, 7:25 am

I'm jumping in here because I've been working on a text copied by a bad speller in the 4th century CE, and it can provide some idea of the prevalence of certain misspellings. I offer a comparison of the text of Isaiah 7 of the Codex Sinaiticus (copied by scribe B) with the text as normalized into conventional orthography. I present the text of the manuscript in capital letters (source: http://www.codexsinaiticus.com) and the conventional spelling in lowercase. Summary: αι-ε interchanges are extremely common (note the alternation in the spelling of ἔσται in verses 21-24 and the two spellings of Ephraim). Still common are ει-ι interchanges. Other misspellings are less common. As far as I could see, in this chapter η and υ are never misspelled. What does this tell us about pronunciation in the 4th century CE?
7.1 ΚΑΙ ΕΓΕΝΕΤΟ ΕΝ ΤΕΣ ΗΜΑΙΡΕΣ ΑΧΑΖ ΤΟΥ ΙΩΑΘΑΜ ΤΟΥ ΥΙΟΥ ΟΖΕΙΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΙΟΥΔΑ ΑΝΕΒΗ ΡΑΑΣΣΩΝ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΑΡΑΜ ΚΑΙ ΦΑΚΕΕ ΥΙΟΣ ΡΟΜΕΛΙΑ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΙΗΛ ΕΠΙ ΙΕΛΗΜ ΠΟΛΕΜΗΣΕ ΑΥΤΗ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΚ ΗΔΥΝΗΘΗΣΑΝ ΠΟΛΙΟΡΚΗΣΕ ΑΥΤΗΝ
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις Ἀχὰζ τοῦ Ἰωαθὰμ τοῦ υἱοῦ Ὀζείου βασιλέως Ἰούδα ἀνέβη Ραασσων βασιλεὺς Ἀρὰμ καὶ Φάκεε υἱὸς Ῥομελιὰ βασιλεὺς Ἰσραὴλ ἐπὶ Ἰερουσαλὴμ πολεμῆσαι αὐτὴν καὶ οὐκ ἠδυνήθησαν πολιορκῆσαι αὐτήν.

2 ΚΑΙ ΑΝΗΓΓΕΛΗ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΝ ΟΙΚΟ ΔΑΔ ΛΕΓΩΝ ΣΥΝΕΦΩΝΗΣΕΝ ΑΡΑΜ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΕΦΡΑΙΜ ΚΑΙ ΕΞΕΣΤΗ Η ΨΥΧΗ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ Η ΨΥΧΗ ΤΟΥ ΛΑΟΥ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΟΝ ΤΡΟΠΟΝ ΕΝ ΔΡΥΜΩ ΞΥΛΟΝ ΥΠΟ ΠΝΣ ΣΑΛΕΥΘΗ
καὶ ἀνηγγέλη εἰς τὸν οἶκον Δαυεὶδ λέγων Συνεφώνησεν Ἀρὰμ πρὸς τὸν Ἐφράιμ · καὶ ἐξέστη ἡ ψυχὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτοῦ, ὃν τρόπον ἐν δρυμῷ ξύλον ὑπὸ πνεύματος σαλευθῇ.

3 ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΚΣ ΠΡΟΣ ΗΣΑΙΑΝ ΕΞΕΛΘΕ ΕΙΣ ΣΥΝΑΝΤΗΣΕΙΝ ΑΧΑΖ ΣΥ ΚΑΙ Ο ΚΑΤΑΛΙΦΘΕΙΣ ΙΑΣΣΟΥΒ Ο ΥΙΟΣ ΣΟΥ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΗΝ ΚΟΛΥΜΒΗΘΡΑ ΤΗΣ ΑΝΩ ΟΔΟΥ ΑΓΡΟΥ ΤΟΥ ΓΝΑΦΕΩΣ
Καὶ εἶπεν Κύριος πρὸς Ἠσαίαν Ἔξελθε εἰς συνάντησιν Ἀχὰζ σὺ καὶ ὁ καταλειφθεὶς Ἰασοὺβ ὁ υἱός σου πρὸς τὴν κολυμβήθραν τῆς ἄνω ὁδοῦ ἀγροῦ τοῦ γναφέως

4 ΚΑΙ ΕΡΙΣ ΑΥΤΩ ΦΥΛΑΞΕ ΤΟΥ ΗΣΥΧΑΣΕ ΚΑΙ ΜΗ ΦΟΒΟΥ ΜΗΔΕ Η ΨΥΧΗ ΣΟΥ ΑΣΘΕΝΙΤΩ ΑΠΟ ΤΩΝ ΔΥΟ ΞΥΛΩΝ ΤΩΝ ΔΑΛΩ ΤΩΝ ΚΑΠΝΙΖΟΜΕΝΩΝ ΤΟΥΤΩ ΟΤΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΟΡΓΗ ΤΟΥ ΘΥΜΟΥ ΜΟΥ ΓΕΝΗΤΑΙ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΙΑΣΟΜΑΙ
καὶ ἐρεῖς αὐτῷ Φύλαξαι τοῦ ἡσυχάσαι καὶ μὴ φοβοῦ, μηδὲ ἡ ψυχή σου ἀσθενείτω ἀπὸ τῶν δύο ξύλων τῶν δαλῶν τῶν καπνιζομένων τούτων· ὅταν γὰρ ὀργὴ τοῦ θυμοῦ μου γένηται, πάλιν ἰάσομαι.

5 ΚΑΙ Ο ΥΙΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΑΡΑΜ ΚΑΙ Ο ΥΙΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΡΟΜΕΛΙΟΥ ΟΤΙ ΕΒΟΥΛΕΥΣΑΝΤΟ ΠΕΡΙ ΣΟΥ ΒΟΥΛΗΝ ΠΟΝΗΡΑ ΛΕΓΟΝΤΑΙΣ
καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἀρὰμ καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ῥομελίου, ὅτι ἐβουλεύσαντο περὶ σοῦ βουλὴν πονηρὰν λέγοντες

6 ΑΝΑΒΗΣΟΜΕΘΑ ΕΙΣ ΤΗΝ ΙΟΥΔΕΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΣΥΝΛΑΛΗΣΑΝΤΑΙΣ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΡΕΨΟΜΕΝ ΑΥΤΟΥΣ ΠΡΟΣ ΗΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣΟΜΕΝ ΑΥΤΗΣ ΤΟ ΥΙΟΝ ΤΑΒΕΗΛ
Ἀναβησόμεθα εἰς τὴν Ἰουδαίαν καὶ συλλαλήσαντες αὐτοῖς ἀποστρέψομεν αὐτοὺς πρὸς ἡμᾶς καὶ βασιλεύσομεν αὐτῆς τὸν υἱὸν Ταβεήλ,

7 ΤΑΔΕ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΚΣ ΣΑΒΑΩΘ ΟΥ ΜΗ ΕΜΜΙΝΗ ΑΥΤΗ Η ΒΟΥΛΗ ΟΥΔΕ ΕΣΤΑΙ
Τάδε λέγει Κύριος Σαβαώθ Οὐ μὴ ἐμμείνῃ αὕτη ἡ βουλὴ οὐδὲ ἔσται

8 ΑΛΛ Η ΚΑΙΦΑΛΗ ΑΡΑΜ ΔΑΜΑΣΚΟΣ ΑΛΛ ΕΤΙ ΕΞΗΚΟΝΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΠΕΝΤΕ ΕΤΩΝ ΕΚΛΙΨΕΙ Η ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑ ΕΦΡΕΜ ΑΠΟ ΛΑΟΥ
ἀλλ’ ἡ κεφαλὴ Ἀρὰμ Δαμασκός, ἀλλ’ ἔτι ἑξήκοντα καὶ πέντε ἐτῶν ἐκλείψει ἡ βασιλεία Εφραιμ ἀπὸ λαοῦ,

9 ΚΑΙ Η ΚΕΦΑΛΗ ΕΦΕΜ ΣΟΜΟΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ Η ΚΑΙΦΑΛΗ ΣΟΜΟΡΩΝ Ο ΥΙΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΡΟΜΕΛΙΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΑΝ ΜΗ ΠΙΣΤΕΥΣΗΤΑΙ ΟΥΔΕ ΜΗ ΣΥΝΗΤΕ
καὶ ἡ κεφαλὴ Εφραιμ Σομορων, καὶ ἡ κεφαλὴ Σομορων ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ρομελιου· καὶ ἐὰν μὴ πιστεύσητε, οὐδὲ μὴ συνῆτε.

10 ΚΑΙ ΠΡΟΣΕΘΕΤΟ ΚΣ ΛΑΛΗΣΑΙ ΤΩ ΑΧΑΖ ΛΕΓΩΝ
Καὶ προσέθετο κύριος λαλῆσαι τῷ Αχαζ λέγων

11 ΑΙΤΗΣΑΙ ΣΕΑΥΤΩ ΣΗΜΙΟΝ ΠΑΡΑ ΚΥ ΤΟΥ ΘΥ ΣΟΥ ΕΙΣ ΒΑΘΟΣ Η ΕΙΣ ΥΨΟΣ
Αἴτησαι σεαυτῷ σημεῖον παρὰ κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ σου εἰς βάθος ἢ εἰς ὕψος.

12 ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΑΧΑΖ ΟΥ ΜΗ ΑΙΤΗΣΩ ΟΥΔ ΟΥ ΜΗ ΠΙΡΑΣΩ ΚΝ
καὶ εἶπεν Αχαζ Οὐ μὴ αἰτήσω οὐδ’ οὐ μὴ πειράσω κύριον.

13 ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΑΚΟΥΣΑΤΕ ΔΗ ΟΙΚΟΣ ΔΑΔ ΜΗ ΜΙΚΡΟΝ ΥΜΙΝ ΑΓΩΝΑ ΠΑΡΕΧΕΙΝ ΑΝΟΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΩΣ ΚΩ ΠΑΡΕΧΕΤΕ ΑΓΩΝΑ
καὶ εἶπεν Ἀκούσατε δή, οἶκος Δαυιδ· μὴ μικρὸν ὑμῖν ἀγῶνα παρέχειν ἀνθρώποις; καὶ πῶς κυρίῳ παρέχετε ἀγῶνα;

14 ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟ ΔΩΣΕΙ ΚΣ ΑΥΤΟΣ ΥΜΙΝ ΣΗΜΙΟΝ ΙΔΟΥ Η ΠΑΡΘΕΝΟΣ ΕΝ ΓΑΤΡΙ ΕΞΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΕΞΕΤΑΙ ΥΙΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΛΕΣΕΙ ΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ διὰ τοῦτο δώσει κύριος αὐτὸς
ὑμῖν σημεῖον·
ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσει τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Εμμανουηλ

15 ΒΟΥΤΥΡΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΛΙ ΦΑΓΕΤΑΙ ΠΡΙΝ Η ΓΝΩΝΑΙ ΑΥΤΟ Η ΠΡΟΕΛΕΣΘΑΙ ΠΟΝΗΡΑ ΕΚΛΕΞΑΣΘΑΙ ΤΟ ΑΓΑΘΟΝ
βούτυρον καὶ μέλι φάγεται· πρὶν ἢ γνῶναι αὐτὸν ἢ προελέσθαι πονηρὰ ἐκλέξασθαι τὸ ἀγαθόν·

16 ΔΙΟΤΙ ΠΡΙΝ Η ΓΝΩΝΑΙ ΤΟ ΠΑΙΔΙΟΝ ΑΓΑΘΟ Η ΚΑΚΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΑΛΙΦΘΗΣΕΤΑΙ Η ΓΗ ΗΝ ΣΥ ΦΟΒΗ ΑΠΟ ΠΡΟΣΩΠΟΥ ΤΩΝ ΔΥΟ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΝ
διότι πρὶν ἢ γνῶναι τὸ παιδίον ἀγαθὸν ἢ κακὸν, καὶ καταλειφθήσεται ἡ γῆ, ἣν σὺ φοβῇ ἀπὸ προσώπου τῶν δύο βασιλέων.

17 ΑΛΛΑ ΕΠΑΞΙ Ο ΘΣ ΕΠΙ ΣΕ ΚΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΤΟΝ ΛΑΟΝ ΣΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΤΟΝ ΟΙΚΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΠΡΣ ΗΜΕΡΑΣ ΑΙ ΟΥΠΩ ΗΚΑΣΙΝ ΑΦ ΗΣ ΗΜΕΡΑΣ ΑΦΕΙΛΕΝ ΕΦΡΑΙΜ ΑΠΟ ΙΟΥΔΑ ΤΟΝ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΑ ΤΩΝ ΑΣΣΥΡΙΩΝ
ἀλλὰ ἐπάξει ὁ θεὸς ἐπὶ σὲ καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν λαόν σου καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον τοῦ πατρός ἡμέρας, αἳ οὔπω ἥκασιν ἀφ’ ἧς ἡμέρας ἀφεῖλεν Εφραιμ ἀπὸ Ιουδα, τὸν βασιλέα τῶν Ἀσσυρίων.

18 ΚΑΙ ΕΣΤΕ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΕΚΙΝΗ ΣΥΡΙΕΙ ΚΣ ΜΥΙΑΙΣ Ο ΚΥΡΙΕΥΕΙ ΜΕΡΟΣ ΠΟΤΑΜΟΥ ΑΙΓΥΠΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΤΗ ΜΕΛΙΣΗ Η ΕΣΤΙΝ ΕΝ ΧΩΡΑ ΑΣΣΥΡΙΩ
καὶ ἔσται ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ συριεῖ κύριος μυίαις, ὃ κυριεύει μέρος ποταμοῦ Αἰγύπτου, καὶ τῇ μελίσσῃ, ἥ ἐστιν ἐν χώρᾳ Ἀσσυρίων,

19 ΚΑΙ ΕΞΕΛΕΥΣΟΝΤΕ ΠΑΝΤΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΠΑΥΣΟΝΤΑΙ ΕΝ ΤΑΙΣ ΦΑΡΑΓΞΕΙΝ ΤΗΣ ΧΩΡΑΣ ΣΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΕΝ ΤΕΣ ΤΡΩΓΛΑΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΠΕΤΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣ ΤΑ ΣΠΗΛΕΑ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΡΑΓΑΔΑ ΚΑΙ ΕΝ ΠΑΝΤΙ ΞΥΛΩ
καὶ ἐξελεύσονται πάντες καὶ ἀναπαύσονται ἐν ταῖς φάραγξι τῆς χώρας σου καὶ ἐν ταῖς τρώγλαις τῶν πετρῶν καὶ εἰς τὰ σπήλαια καὶ εἰς πᾶσαν ῥαγάδα καὶ ἐν παντὶ ξύλῳ.

20 ΕΝ ΤΗ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΕΚΙΝΗ ΞΥΡΗΣΙ ΚΣ ΤΩ ΞΥΡΩ ΤΩ ΜΕΓΑΛΩ Κ ΜΕΜΕΘΥΣΜΕΝΩ ΠΕΡΑΝ ΤΟΥ ΠΟΤΑΜΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΣΣΥΡΙΩΝ ΤΗΝ ΚΑΙΦΑΛΗΝ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΣ ΤΡΙΧΑΣ ΤΩΝ ΠΟΔΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΠΩΓΩΝΑ ΑΦΕΛΕΙ
ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ξυρήσει κύριος τῷ ξυρῷ τῷ μεγάλῳ καὶ μεμεθυσμένῳ, πέραν τοῦ ποταμοῦ βασιλέως Ἀσσυρίων, τὴν κεφαλὴν καὶ τὰς τρίχας τῶν ποδῶν καὶ τὸν πώγωνα ἀφελεῖ.

21 ΚΑΙ ΕΣΤΕ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΕΚΙΝΗ ΘΡΕΨΕΙ ΑΝΟΣ ΔΑΜΑΛΙΝ ΒΟΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΔΥΟ ΠΒΑΤΑ
καὶ ἔσται ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ θρέψει ἄνθρωπος δάμαλιν βοῶν καὶ δύο πρόβατα,

22 ΚΑΙ ΕΣΤΑΙ ΑΠΟ ΤΟΥ ΠΛΙΣΤΟΝ ΠΟΙΕΙΝ ΓΑΛΑ ΒΟΥΤΥΡΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΛΙ ΦΑΓΕΤΑΙ ΠΑΣ Ο ΚΑΤΑΛΙΦΘΕΙΣ ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ ΓΗΣ
καὶ ἔσται ἀπὸ τοῦ πλεῖστον ποιεῖν γάλα βούτυρον καὶ μέλι φάγεται πᾶς ὁ καταλειφθεὶς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς.

23 ΚΑΙ ΕΣΤΕ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΕΚΙΝΗ ΠΑΣ ΤΟΠΟΣ ΟΥ ΕΑΝ ΩΣΙΝ ΧΙΛΙΑΙ ΑΜΠΕΛΟΙ ΧΙΛΙΩΝ ΣΙΚΛΩ ΕΙΣ ΧΕΡΣΟΝ ΕΣΟΝΤΑΙ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣ ΑΚΑΝΘΑΣ
καὶ ἔσται ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ πᾶς τόπος, οὗ ἐὰν ὦσιν χίλιαι ἄμπελοι χιλίων σίκλων, εἰς χέρσον ἔσονται καὶ εἰς ἄκανθας·

24 ΜΕΤΑ ΒΕΛΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΞΕΥΜΑΤΟΣ ΕΙΣΕΛΕΥΣΟΝΤΑΙ ΕΚΕΙ ΟΤΙ ΧΕΡΣΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΚΑΝΘΕ ΕΣΤΑΙ ΠΑΣΑ Η ΓΗ
μετὰ βέλους καὶ τοξεύματος εἰσελεύσονται ἐκεῖ, ὅτι χέρσος καὶ ἄκανθαι ἔσται πᾶσα ἡ γῆ.

25 ΚΑΙ ΠΑΝ ΟΡΟΣ ΑΡΟΤΡΙΩΜΕΝΟ ΑΡΟΤΡΙΑΘΗΣΕΤΑΙ ΟΥ ΜΗ ΕΠΕΛΘΗ ΕΚΙ ΦΟΒΟΣ ΕΣΤΑΙ ΓΑΡ ΑΠΟ ΤΗΣ ΧΕΡΣΟΥ Κ ΑΚΑΝΘΗΣ ΕΙΣ ΒΟΣΚΗΜΑ ΠΡΟΒΑΤΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΑΠΑΤΗΜΑ ΒΟΟΣ
καὶ πᾶν ὄρος ἀροτριώμενον ἀροτριαθήσεται, οὐ μὴ ἐπέλθῃ ἐκεῖ φόβος· ἔσται γὰρ ἀπὸ τῆς χέρσου καὶ ἀκάνθης εἰς βόσκημα προβάτου καὶ καταπάτημα βοός.
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by RandallButh » August 3rd, 2011, 10:23 am

Your text confirms that EI and I were pronounced the same, as was AI and E.
For the pronounciation of other symbols and sounds you will need to look wider.
For example, OI and Y were pronounced the same, and also Ω and O. Caragounis' book demonstrates some of these with his notes on Papyrus 66 to John.
A look at Gignac, or just reading through the Loeb Papyri Letters or the Greek documents from the Judean Desert will amply confirm this.

However, the spelling of (OI and Y) and (Ω and O) were relatively more stable than EI/I. This may reflect a spelling tradition that was able to be fixed several centuries earlier when EI/I and AI/E had already assimilated but the other vowels were just starting. The same thing is true of Hta. If Hta stayed as [e] until the second century CE, it means that there was a period of five centuries when EI/I and AI/E were creating spelling mischief in the Greek world and confusing new writers and influencing readers all the time, while Hta established itself correctly in the system. Then, after Hta joined EI/I (2-4c CE) it was still quite a bit more stable in spelling than EI/I because of its 5 century-long tradition of proper phonetic spelling. I am pretty sure that the scribe of Sin. had Hta as but his spelling was relatively clean. Later manuscripts as well tend to show a more stable historical spelling for Hta.
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by Philemon Zachariou » August 3rd, 2011, 11:33 am

RandallButh wrote:
Randall, looking at your comment above, let me comment:

If Η in the mid-5th c. BC was pronounced the same as Ε(ε), then there would have been no need for the use of Η in place of the already existing letter Ε for the ε sound. At that point in time Η(=ι) was still in the process of being officially adopted into the alphabet. The timing fits with what Plato says in Κράτυλος about the confusion of H being used in place of EI or I. He did not say that the Athenians confused H with E, did he? Clearly, his poignant remark shows—and let's not lose sight of this—that Η was considered as iota Ι just as iota I was considered as ΕΙ . When the Athenians officially ratified their alphabet in 403 BC, Η was included as an sound, which helped dispel the confused use of Ε for Η, though not completely yet. One should not deduce from the above that in Plato's time H was [ε] rather than .

Ἔρρωσθε and Cheers,

Philemon Zachariou


actually, no one is suggesting that Hta was ever used for [ε]. In the pre-403 spelling system the H symbol was used for rough breathing. the innovation of 403 was to use it to mark a long low/mid front vowel, which was the long counterpart to E, but was not E.
Your argumentation is also a little curious:
"If Η in the mid-5th c. BC was pronounced the same as Ε(ε), then there would have been no need for the use of Η in place of the already existing letter Ε for the ε sound. "
There was also no need for another /i/ symbol since they already had two [EI and I]. So why in the world would a new symbol need to be invented?

The question for any analysis to answer is why EI and I were often confused from the 4cBCE on, but H was relatively stable and only started to be regularly confused with EI and I after the 2cCE?

ERRWSO
IWANHS


------------------------
Υour question, "So why in the world would a new symbol need to be invented?" is legitimate.
We can be assured regarding H /i/, however, not by our "whys" but by history's "whats."
And what we have from history is what, as I pointed out earlier, we must not lose sight of, for...

... ΠΛΑΤΩΝ ΕΞΗΓΗΣΕΝ.

More when I get a chance.

Χαίρετε,

Philemon Zachariou
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by RandallButh » August 3rd, 2011, 1:04 pm

Since so much weight is being put on this statement of Plato, can you provide it in a paragraph of context?
There are many ways of interpreting what you are talking about without assuming that everyone in Athens and Greek was already equating H=EI=I.
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by Stephen Carlson » August 3rd, 2011, 1:30 pm

RandallButh wrote:Since so much weight is being put on this statement of Plato, can you provide it in a paragraph of context?
It's from Cratylus 418c. Here's some context:
{ΕΡΜ.} Ἀληθῆ λέγεις· ἀλλὰ δὴ τὸ “ζημιῶδες” τί ἂν εἴη;
{ΣΩ.} Τί δ’ ἂν εἴη ποτὲ “ζημιῶδες”; θέασαι, ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, ὡς ἐγὼ ἀληθῆ λέγω λέγων ὅτι προστιθέντες γράμματα καὶ ἐξαιροῦντες σφόδρα ἀλλοιοῦσι τὰς τῶν ὀνομάτων διανοίας, οὕτως ὥστε σμικρὰ πάνυ παραστρέφοντες ἐνίοτε τἀναντία ποιεῖν σημαίνειν. οἷον καὶ ἐν τῷ “δέοντι”· ἐνενόησα γὰρ αὐτὸ καὶ ἀνεμνήσθην ἄρτι ἀπὸ τοῦδε ὃ ἔμελλόν σοι ἐρεῖν ὅτι ἡ μὲν νέα φωνὴ ἡμῖν ἡ καλὴ αὑτηὶ καὶ τοὐναντίον περιέτρεψε μηνύειν τὸ “δέον” καὶ τὸ “ζημιῶδες,” ἀφανίζουσα ὅτι νοεῖ, ἡ δὲ παλαιὰ ἀμφότερον δηλοῖ ὃ βούλεται τοὔνομα.
{ΕΡΜ.} Πῶς λέγεις;
{ΣΩ.} Ἐγώ σοι ἐρῶ. οἶσθα ὅτι οἱ παλαιοὶ οἱ ἡμέτεροι τῷ ἰῶτα καὶ τῷ δέλτα εὖ μάλα ἐχρῶντο, καὶ οὐχ ἥκιστα αἱ γυναῖκες, αἵπερ μάλιστα τὴν ἀρχαίαν φωνὴν σῴζουσι. νῦν δὲ ἀντὶ μὲν τοῦ ἰῶτα ἢ εἶ ἢ ἦτα μεταστρέφουσιν, ἀντὶ δὲ τοῦ δέλτα ζῆτα, ὡς δὴ μεγαλοπρεπέστερα ὄντα.
{ΕΡΜ.} Πῶς δή;
{ΣΩ.} Οἷον οἱ μὲν ἀρχαιότατοι “ἱμέραν” τὴν ἡμέραν ἐκάλουν, οἱ δὲ “ἑμέραν,” οἱ δὲ νῦν “ἡμέραν.”
{ΕΡΜ.} Ἔστι ταῦτα.
{ΣΩ.} Οἶσθα οὖν ὅτι μόνον τούτων δηλοῖ τὸ ἀρχαῖον ὄνομα τὴν διάνοιαν τοῦ θεμένου; ὅτι γὰρ ἁσμένοις τοῖς (d.) ἀνθρώποις καὶ ἱμείρουσιν ἐκ τοῦ σκότους τὸ φῶς ἐγίγνετο,ταύτῃ ὠνόμασαν “ἱμέραν.”
{ΕΡΜ.} Φαίνεται.
{ΣΩ.} Νῦν δέ γε τετραγῳδημένον οὐδ’ ἂν κατανοήσαις ὅτι βούλεται ἡ “ἡμέρα.” καίτοι τινὲς οἴονται, ὡς δὴ ἡ ἡμέρα ἥμερα ποιεῖ, διὰ ταῦτα ὠνομάσθαι αὐτὴν οὕτως.
ETA: It looks like to me Socrates is claiming that people used to say the iota sound, but now say the epsilon or eta sound. This hardly looks like evidence that eta and iota were pronounced similarly at this time.
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by Philemon Zachariou » August 3rd, 2011, 6:28 pm

I am glad you took the pain to quote Socrates in full. The meaning of μεταστρέφουσιν tells it all.

Philemon Zachariou
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Re: Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek Authentically

Post by Philemon Zachariou » August 4th, 2011, 8:53 am

sccarlson wrote:
RandallButh wrote:Since so much weight is being put on this statement of Plato, can you provide it in a paragraph of context?
It's from Cratylus 418c. Here's some context:
{ΕΡΜ.} Ἀληθῆ λέγεις· ἀλλὰ δὴ τὸ “ζημιῶδες” τί ἂν εἴη;
{ΣΩ.} Τί δ’ ἂν εἴη ποτὲ “ζημιῶδες”; θέασαι, ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, ὡς ἐγὼ ἀληθῆ λέγω λέγων ὅτι προστιθέντες γράμματα καὶ ἐξαιροῦντες σφόδρα ἀλλοιοῦσι τὰς τῶν ὀνομάτων διανοίας, οὕτως ὥστε σμικρὰ πάνυ παραστρέφοντες ἐνίοτε τἀναντία ποιεῖν σημαίνειν. οἷον καὶ ἐν τῷ “δέοντι”· ἐνενόησα γὰρ αὐτὸ καὶ ἀνεμνήσθην ἄρτι ἀπὸ τοῦδε ὃ ἔμελλόν σοι ἐρεῖν ὅτι ἡ μὲν νέα φωνὴ ἡμῖν ἡ καλὴ αὑτηὶ καὶ τοὐναντίον περιέτρεψε μηνύειν τὸ “δέον” καὶ τὸ “ζημιῶδες,” ἀφανίζουσα ὅτι νοεῖ, ἡ δὲ παλαιὰ ἀμφότερον δηλοῖ ὃ βούλεται τοὔνομα.
{ΕΡΜ.} Πῶς λέγεις;
{ΣΩ.} Ἐγώ σοι ἐρῶ. οἶσθα ὅτι οἱ παλαιοὶ οἱ ἡμέτεροι τῷ ἰῶτα καὶ τῷ δέλτα εὖ μάλα ἐχρῶντο, καὶ οὐχ ἥκιστα αἱ γυναῖκες, αἵπερ μάλιστα τὴν ἀρχαίαν φωνὴν σῴζουσι. νῦν δὲ ἀντὶ μὲν τοῦ ἰῶτα ἢ εἶ ἢ ἦτα μεταστρέφουσιν, ἀντὶ δὲ τοῦ δέλτα ζῆτα, ὡς δὴ μεγαλοπρεπέστερα ὄντα.
{ΕΡΜ.} Πῶς δή;
{ΣΩ.} Οἷον οἱ μὲν ἀρχαιότατοι “ἱμέραν” τὴν ἡμέραν ἐκάλουν, οἱ δὲ “ἑμέραν,” οἱ δὲ νῦν “ἡμέραν.”
{ΕΡΜ.} Ἔστι ταῦτα.
{ΣΩ.} Οἶσθα οὖν ὅτι μόνον τούτων δηλοῖ τὸ ἀρχαῖον ὄνομα τὴν διάνοιαν τοῦ θεμένου; ὅτι γὰρ ἁσμένοις τοῖς (d.) ἀνθρώποις καὶ ἱμείρουσιν ἐκ τοῦ σκότους τὸ φῶς ἐγίγνετο,ταύτῃ ὠνόμασαν “ἱμέραν.”
{ΕΡΜ.} Φαίνεται.
{ΣΩ.} Νῦν δέ γε τετραγῳδημένον οὐδ’ ἂν κατανοήσαις ὅτι βούλεται ἡ “ἡμέρα.” καίτοι τινὲς οἴονται, ὡς δὴ ἡ ἡμέρα ἥμερα ποιεῖ, διὰ ταῦτα ὠνομάσθαι αὐτὴν οὕτως.
ETA: It looks like to me Socrates is claiming that people used to say the iota sound, but now say the epsilon or eta sound. This hardly looks like evidence that eta and iota were pronounced similarly at this time.

--------------------

Look close, else it appears you are making epsilon ε out of ει .

Philemon Zachariou
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