Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 6th, 2016, 6:40 am

Wes Wood wrote:You, of all people ...
That phrase has a familiar ring to it :?

You are, however, very right. I (along with Thomas) am the person least likely to stay on any topic (and me less so than him) - the flow of thoughts in my mind seems have a wide and slow-moving course - the sign of a bored and barren mind. :lol:
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » January 6th, 2016, 1:50 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: (along with Thomas)
Self deprecation is so much more satisfying when shared with a friend! :)
Stephen Hughes wrote: the sign of a bored and barren mind.
Oh, come on! Kick up a bit of dust. Make somebody mad.
Oscar Wilde wrote:Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Aldous Huxley wrote:Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are dead.
― Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote:“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.”
Stephen Hughes wrote: the flow of thoughts in my mind seems have a wide and slow-moving course
Sounds like a river looking for a new channel!
ἐπερώτησον τὸν ποταμὸν ποῦ θέλει προελθεῖν.
γράφω μαθεῖν

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 28th, 2017, 10:45 am

A year on, and can anybody please tell me whether my pronunciation errors are at the morphological (phonemic) or sound-set phonetic level? Do I have the full set of sounds for Koine Greek? Are the errors random or patterned?

I've tried to work on the issues raised a year ago, but now as before, I'd appreciate any criticisms, and any strategies to success the would help. To that end, here is me misarticulating my way through John 21 (on archive.org) with a fat and sluggish tongue.

[The earlier files, to which this could be compared are no longer available at their hyperlinks, so this one will have to be taken on its own merits.]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » January 29th, 2017, 9:13 am

It's difficult to try to listen foreign language intensively for pronunciation errors.

I have one general advice for those who record their voice: try to make technically as clear and high-quality file as possible, within reasonable limits. For some reason Stephen's file has dark and muddy sound quality. It doesn't affect understandability much, if you are used to listening to the language in question, but makes detailed analysis of phonemes harder. (Compression probably isn't a problem here, but sometimes ruins the sound completely. Don't try to save space by compressing your mp3 files more than in usual high-quality music files! It doesn't save so much space but really can ruin the sound. If you want to save space, cut off the upper frequencies above 15kHz or so, maybe even 10kHz with speech-only.)

Your speech is easy and pleasant to listen. I didn't listen it through but didn't find glaring systematic errors. υ/οι may be inconsistent sometimes, at least I heard it as ου. η is very difficult to pronounce and listen to (I mean for everyone because most are not used to that Restored Koine distinction at all), sometimes I hear it as ε with no hint of ι, sometimes as Finnish ö (oe), sometimes more like Restored η. Personally I would pronounce it as ι rather than ε because it was going to that direction anyway. You could try to make it a bit like ε+ι, beginning with ε and going towards ι, that way it would sound more like the latter but still distinct. Then by learning to make it shorter and one vowel instead of two it can sound like between those two. And maybe it can stay more consistent that way.

The first accent problem is right there in the first word, grave shouldn't be so accented in μετα, instead ταυτα should be more accented.
verse 3 ερχομεθα has wrong accent.
But there aren't many accent errors. Personally I don't believe acute/grave distinction can be followed mechanically, your prosody is pretty natural.

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 29th, 2017, 10:27 am

@Eeli Thanks. I want to remain clear to the ideal, but will work on the problems you pointed out within the system. I mean, finding the holes in lexicon entries is as easy as running one's fingers over the ducco to find where they have cello-taped then spray painted. Pronunciation is at least challenging.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:It's difficult to try to listen foreign language intensively for pronunciation errors.
Yes. Even more so, when it is your own.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:I have one general advice for those who record their voice: try to make technically as clear and high-quality file as possible, within reasonable limits. For some reason Stephen's file has dark and muddy sound quality. It doesn't affect understandability much, if you are used to listening to the language in question, but makes detailed analysis of phonemes harder. (Compression probably isn't a problem here, but sometimes ruins the sound completely. Don't try to save space by compressing your mp3 files more than in usual high-quality music files! It doesn't save so much space but really can ruin the sound. If you want to save space, cut off the upper frequencies above 15kHz or so, maybe even 10kHz with speech-only.)
Archive.org does its own conversions. The .wav file is the original. Which one were you listening to? I am using a genuine Samsung earpiece microphone, rather than talking into the phone as I had done last year.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:Your speech is easy and pleasant to listen.
I tried to be less furrow-browed in my reading, less intense, is any of that still a problem.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:I didn't listen it through but didn't find glaring systematic errors. υ/οι may be inconsistent sometimes, at least I heard it as ου.
I feel that I can keep the difference more consistency in the stem, but not the endings. Perhaps once the new οι/υ is truely internalised, thebendings will be better. Thinking about the case relationship to the syntax means I don't pay so much attention to the accuracy of pronunciation.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:η is very difficult to pronounce and listen to (I mean for everyone because most are not used to that Restored Koine distinction at all), sometimes I hear it as ε with no hint of ι, sometimes as Finnish ö (oe), sometimes more like Restored η. Personally I would pronounce it as ι rather than ε because it was going to that direction anyway. You could try to make it a bit like ε+ι, beginning with ε and going towards ι, that way it would sound more like the latter but still distinct. Then by learning to make it shorter and one vowel instead of two it can sound like between those two. And maybe it can stay more consistent that way.
Making η a rounded vowel /ø/ helps me to to keep the right number of vowels - which pays off one one advancement with another inaccuracy. Creating a new vowel in one's phonemic system is not an easy thing to do. I usually practice differentiating by doing some sort of scales or progressions one vowel to the next, or with "alternations" like Μηδὲ κληθῆτε καθηγηταί· (Matthew 23:10).
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:The first accent problem is right there in the first word, grave shouldn't be so accented in μετα, instead ταυτα should be more accented.
It is much easier to pout and point with the lips using the οὗτος and τοῦτο initial vowels, than it is in the αὕτη and ταῦτα initial vowels with the Restored Koine pronunciation. The pouting is a good way of slowing down and stressing the demonstrative. I think that I am transferring the English habit of stressing the first and last words of a sentence, or sentence units.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:verse 3 ερχομεθα has wrong accent.
Actually, I changed the number. I saw ἐρχόμεθα, imagined one person speaking and the others assenting, then said what the one should say (I have an inculturated distaste for people answering for others and for people speaking at the same time, but this evidently implies that either one or both of those was taking place). I will try not to impose my cultural preferences on the reading.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:But there aren't many accent errors.
I realise that you are saying οὐ παρετόνισας πολύ, but thinking for a moment, I wonder what sort of accent I would be considered as having in that reading, by a person of the period.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:your prosody is pretty natural.
The more I read, the more the significant words stand out, and the less attention is paid to the syntax-filling words.

Thank you Eeli, you have given me a lot to think about and to improve.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » February 1st, 2017, 6:15 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:It's difficult to try to listen foreign language intensively for pronunciation errors.
Yes. Even more so, when it is your own.
One tip for listening: find some audio software with which you can slow down the tempo. I use Audacity, a free and open source audio editor. Open the file and apply Effect -> Change tempo and slow it down e.g. -20% (more than that affected the sound quality too much in my opinion with this specific example).

This works of course for other listening, too, if you feel the reader is too fast for you.

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 2nd, 2017, 7:59 am

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:I use Audacity, a free and open source audio editor.
That gives a digitalised oscilloscopic display of the sound waves and allows for manipulation of the data in various ways. In the case of many readings of mine, mis-takes, and long silences can be edited out.

Seeing that I need special attention to improving my accuracy in vocalic production, is there a voice visualisation feature on this APP, or another different APP that can let me "see" what vowel I am producing? I mean that I hope there is a way to translate sound wave for the vowels into a formant chart - a vowel diagram - to give me empirical data about my pronunciation, to work forward from. Perhaps seeing a visual representation my mispronunciation will both help in the identification of errors and serve as a means of working towards to accuracy. An example of analogue oscilloscopic output from the 1960's at the bottom of this post is from J. Pickett, Some applications of speech analysis to communication aids for the deaf IEEE Transactions on Audio and Electroacoustics ( Volume: 17, Issue: 4, Dec 1969 ), pgg. 283 - 289.

This is a digital example from Australian English taken from R. Mannell, Vowel Perception in Australian English:
Image

I don't think multi-channel spectrographic analyses will be of as much help as a formant chart will be, because thelevel of accuracy of the data we have from the Koine period is only alphabetic. Analyses is errors and inconsustencies in the alphabetic data gas allowed for the postulation of theoretical values for the idealised 7 vowels of Koine Greek. As with the fictional Jurrasic Park DNA sequence reconstructions, there is a lot else besides what can be recorded in an alphabet that needs to be supplied to make the sound of a dead language come back to life, so we should limit ourselves to analysis and comparison with observable data (alphabetical representations of the Koine) that has been analysed theoretically (the 7 vowel system). In other words, asking the, "Are the vowels that I am producing roughly correspondant with the vowels theorised for Koine Greek?"

Contradicting myself now, I think that the type of output that can be derived from the data that the digitalisation of somebody trying to pronounce Koine Greek can be of help in reducing other errors as well. What I can see visually from the sound waves and from close listening is interesting too. The vowels that my mouth is unfamiliar with are still pronounced longer than those, which can be approximated from English, regardless of whether they are in stressed syllables or not. Another thing that I notice is that I tend to coalesce final vowels with the initial elements of the following word, while the way that Greek is written seems to suggest more of a tendency for Greek to form CV syllables across word breaks.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 28th, 2017, 11:34 am

Hi interested parties,
I think I have atrained (sic.) myself to a stable 7 vowel restored Koine pronunciation now.

Apart from the edit of my sub-conscious reading for sense as ἃ δὲ for the correct τὰ δὲ, which has bern clumsily edited, aree there any other errors in this recording of Daphnis 3.12?

I'd appreciate the comments of close ears.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Please offer your criticism of my reading.

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 30th, 2017, 12:56 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
February 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:The first accent problem is right there in the first word, grave shouldn't be so accented in μετα, instead ταυτα should be more accented.
...
I think that I am transferring the English habit of stressing the first and last words of a sentence, or sentence units.
The logical and practical implication of your observation is that there three (or more degrees) of stress required to read Koine Greek aloud.

In previous readings, I have been aiming at differentiating two levels of stress. Now, however, I have tried to incorporate a three levels of stress model of stress into the latest reading.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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