Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby Stephen Carlson » March 7th, 2012, 10:17 am

I'm a little despondent in that, even as out of date Robertson's grammar is, I have no optimism that there will be another grammar on its scope produced in my lifetime. Ditto for Smyth.

Stephen
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby cwconrad » March 7th, 2012, 11:43 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:I'm a little despondent in that, even as out of date Robertson's grammar is, I have no optimism that there will be another grammar on its scope produced in my lifetime. Ditto for Smyth.

Stephen


I wouldn't use the word "depondent," although I have no expectation of seeing either Smyth or ATR superseded in my (even shorter) remaining years; I'm grateful for the existence and accessibility of both of them. Dubious as I am of the adequacy of our traditional grammatical and linguistic descriptions of ancient Greek forms and usages, I am grateful for all that we share today of the harvest of generations of those who have labored to explain the hows and whys of the working of ancient Greek. I wouldn't want to be without BDF either, and I suppose that too was in Stephen's mind in this comment. It does sadden me, however, to think that the erudition of an A.T.Robertson or of an H.W. Smyth is something that does not appear often and seems less likely to appear again soon: the culture that can nurture such erudition does seem to have a rather precarious existence in this generation.

There's been much said about Rijksbaron of late in this forum; I think that his Syntax and Semantics of the Verb in Classical Greek may be as important and valuable as ATR and Smyth.
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Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby MAubrey » March 7th, 2012, 1:33 pm

cwconrad wrote:I wouldn't use the word "depondent," although I have no expectation of seeing either Smyth or ATR superseded in my (even shorter) remaining years; I'm grateful for the existence and accessibility of both of them. Dubious as I am of the adequacy of our traditional grammatical and linguistic descriptions of ancient Greek forms and usages, I am grateful for all that we share today of the harvest of generations of those who have labored to explain the hows and whys of the working of ancient Greek. I wouldn't want to be without BDF either, and I suppose that too was in Stephen's mind in this comment. It does sadden me, however, to think that the erudition of an A.T.Robertson or of an H.W. Smyth is something that does not appear often and seems less likely to appear again soon: the culture that can nurture such erudition does seem to have a rather precarious existence in this generation.

There's been much said about Rijksbaron of late in this forum; I think that his Syntax and Semantics of the Verb in Classical Greek may be as important and valuable as ATR and Smyth.


I'm not sure ths "supersede" is the right word either. In a very real sense both Smyth and ATR are the first of their kind and cannot be superseded. There was no non-translation reference grammar (comprehensive or not) for Koine Greek before Robertson. Moulton wasn't complete and everything else was either a learning grammar or a translation from German or Latin. Likewise, there was no non-translation comprehensive reference grammar for Classical Greek either. The situation was slightly better. Between Goodwin's Syntax of the Moods and Tenses and Gildersleeve's Syntax of Classical Greek from Homer to Demosthenes, syntax was covered extremely well. But it existed independent of any discussion of morphology and paradigmatic structure. Smyth filled that gap while also providing an incredibly useful syntax along with it.

Do we really want to supercede that? I'm not so sure.

On another note: the amazing thing about Robertson is that someone could easily sit down and write an additional 1500 pages of commentary just on his grammatical description and we wouldn't get anywhere near covering everything he wrote.
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby Paul-Nitz » May 14th, 2012, 9:46 am

Back on the first page of this thread, there is a listing of places a person can find Smyth. Fourth post down on the page at this link: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1020

There's a new place to get it, though I'm not sure it's worth it. Smyth's grammar is on "Pre-pub" with Logos right now. http://www.logos.com/product/4679/bibli ... roductions

From the preview pages shown, this seems to be simply a very nicely done scanning of Smyth. This is the 1920 version, though as noted in earlier posts, the 1920 and the 1956 versions are virtually the same.
http://www.logos.com/images/PageScans/4 ... 008_07.jpg

As far as I can tell, it is only available in a Biblical Languages References package running at $250 pre-pub, $550 post-pub.

The biggest question would be whether or not it is searchable.

For an inexpensive version, you might consider printing the 1920 version pdf file. I printed an enlarged copy (about 2x) and bound it. I keep the Index separate in a comb binding. It works well for me and only cost me about $20. Directions for binding can be found many places, or I could describe how I went about it (send a private B-Greek message).
Image
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby David Lim » May 14th, 2012, 11:13 am

Just wondering, has anyone thought that we should host the pdf file for Smyth here together with Funk's Grammar, and any other freely available resources?
δαυιδ λιμ
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby Jonathan Robie » May 14th, 2012, 11:39 am

David Lim wrote:Just wondering, has anyone thought that we should host the pdf file for Smyth here together with Funk's Grammar, and any other freely available resources?


TextKit has Smyth as a PDF (containing images).

CCEL has started work on a Unicode version. I wonder why they don't just transform the Perseus version to a PDF? Looks like George Somsel is doing this work, if he wants help from B-Greek he should feel free to ask.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby cwconrad » May 14th, 2012, 1:15 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
David Lim wrote:Just wondering, has anyone thought that we should host the pdf file for Smyth here together with Funk's Grammar, and any other freely available resources?


TextKit has Smyth as a PDF (containing images).

CCEL has started work on a Unicode version. I wonder why they don't just transform the Perseus version to a PDF? Looks like George Somsel is doing this work, if he wants help from B-Greek he should feel free to ask.


I was disappointed that Logos didn't include Smyth's Grammar in the free distribution of the Perseus Library (some other Greek and Latin grammars were included). I think that the PDF file of Smyth's grammar is unwieldy. The easiest format to use is the Perseus at UChicago; with table of contents sidebar that one can easily scroll down to find the relevant link and then click on it to open up the page(s) needed: (http://artflx.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phil ... nographs.9). The only thing more that I could add would be a hyper-linked index to Smyth's grammar.

As for the Smyth at CCEL and George Somsel's digitization there, I think that's been in abeyance for quite some time now. I doubt it will go forward.

As for Logos software's "Biblical Languages Reference" package, I personally think it involves acquisition of space-consuming materials that one is never likely to use enough to justify the cost of acquisition.I'd love to have the Perseus/Philologic Smyth on my own computer, but with a good constant internet connection, online access is always available.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby Louis L Sorenson » May 14th, 2012, 2:01 pm

Looks like someone at Logos in the marketing dept had a bright idea. It makes no sense that the standard English classical school grammar would not be available as a stand alone product. They would make more money on it also. A new print version is about $45us. The digital version should be around that price.
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby Lee Moses » May 15th, 2012, 10:57 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:For an inexpensive version, you might consider printing the 1920 version pdf file. I printed an enlarged copy (about 2x) and bound it. I keep the Index separate in a comb binding. It works well for me and only cost me about $20. Directions for binding can be found many places, or I could describe how I went about it (send a private B-Greek message).


You can probably save yourself the hassle and maybe even a little bit of money. If you need the enlarged print, what you mention sounds like a great way to go. Otherwise, Smyth is just about perpetually available on E-Bay and similar sources.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Herbert-Weir-Sm ... 4844ebcc1b

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... _sacat=267
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Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar"

Postby George F Somsel » May 15th, 2012, 12:01 pm

cwconrad wrote:[

I was disappointed that Logos didn't include Smyth's Grammar in the free distribution of the Perseus Library (some other Greek and Latin grammars were included). I think that the PDF file of Smyth's grammar is unwieldy. The easiest format to use is the Perseus at UChicago; with table of contents sidebar that one can easily scroll down to find the relevant link and then click on it to open up the page(s) needed: (http://artflx.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phil ... nographs.9). The only thing more that I could add would be a hyper-linked index to Smyth's grammar.


As for Logos software's "Biblical Languages Reference" package, I personally think it involves acquisition of space-consuming materials that one is never likely to use enough to justify the cost of acquisition.I'd love to have the Perseus/Philologic Smyth on my own computer, but with a good constant internet connection, online access is always available.


From time to time Logos unbundles the constituents of some of the collections. It is possible that they will do so at some time after the release of this collection. Should I happen to become aware that this occurs, I will report such.
george
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